<!doctype html>
<html>
<head>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">The answer to Peter's question is for me quite simple - excuse me please Pedro for this answer and please comment. All of us should tie our wonderful insights about feedback in various systems back to information. If we first admit that real processes involve some kind of change as their most significant property - simple circularity is not the issue - change is always a change in infomation, quantity or function, capacity to function. The reference to Sheri's paper is critical, but please recall that "self"- reference may itself require a complex interpretatiom <em>vs. </em></span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 12pt;"><em>"</em>hetero"-reference.</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Toxic processes in biology, say the interaction of a toxin with a receptor site can result in a <em>loss </em>of information as the capacity to function. Toxic processes in society, such as those we have to observe in the U.S., Russia and Palestine and Israel ditto. Luckily, "naturally", there is always a <em>potential</em> for return to normalcy. The dynamics of that return need to be studied.</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">In slightly different terms, a dynamic structure of process information or information process is the common denominator in existence. I believe it is useful to make explicit reference to how information operates in different situations at different levels. </span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thank you,</span>
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Joseph</span>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
Le 29.10.2024 22:54 CET, Peter Erdi <peter.erdi@kzoo.edu> a écrit :
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Thank you for your feedback. I needed a little time to give up my initial intention. I had some framework in mind about the concept of feedback, but during the discussion, I realized I had the chance to read and digest other ideas.
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
++ I am afraid that some emails went to my junk mail box and might have been deleted. If I did not answer, I probably unintentionally deleted your mail. Please resend if it is possible! ++
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Where are we now?
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
- Karl suggested: "Let us build a feedback based circular system that functions, at first. Let us investigate in a subsequent step, what are critical components of that system."
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
- Alex offers an optimistic perspective. He states that there is an approach, namely Perennial Philosophy, that helps to avoid catastrophic extinction.
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
- Mark associates Perennial Philosophy with the concept of Phenotype as an Agent for Epigenetic Inheritance (based on a paper by Torday & Miller. Denis Noble and Philip Ball were mentioned.
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
- Joe mentioned French Philosophy—Jean Baudrillard, and implicitly postmodernism. I am not familiar with the works of Augustin Berque. With a little jump I mention hermeneutics, and the cyclic perpsective of understanding. I believe that hermeneutics is an important concept in brain theory (with Ichiro Tsuda Hermeneutic approach to the brain: Process versus Device?
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUovXjy9$">https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC</a> )
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Gordana's post is a game-changer in our discussion. We all know that the Modern (neo-Darwinian) Synthesis has been challenged, and she gave a list of newer ideas of the "Extended Evolutionary Synthesis" by Denis Noble.
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I like the idea of analyzing evolution in cybernetic terms. Wiener's approach is based on the assumption (?) that machines are organisms are goal-seeking systems. How about evolution? As we know, neo-Darwinism assumes random mutation and implies that evolution is open-ended without a goal. I (not very profoundly) know some papers by Daniel W McShea about Evolutionary trends and goal-directedness.
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
This is a huge topic, and I am not the most appropriate person to lead the discussion. In any case, one defender of the now classical theory is Jerry Coyne. See his blog <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCYtcx6-5$">https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Briefly, I saw Sheri's paper in BioSystems when it was published, but I have to read it more attentively. The concept of self-referential information processing is very important to me.
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
So, my dear friends, how can we continue the conversation?
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
If you are in Europe or in India, good night!
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Peter
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
</div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display: inline-block; width: 98%;" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr">
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><strong>From:</strong> Markose, Sheri <scher@essex.ac.uk><br><strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, October 29, 2024 1:40 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se>; Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu><br><strong>Cc:</strong> fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br><strong>Subject:</strong> RE: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback</span>
<div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="x_WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Dear Peter, Gordana and All </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Let me add to the major <strong>Revisions to the theory of Evolution</strong> theme, which has come about as result of advances in gene science. This has moved the needle away from the flawed <strong>Neo-Darwinian Synthesis (NDS)</strong> on random mutation and natural selection. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Gordana in the list you gave below, please note that the major game changer to the <strong>NDS</strong> came with the discoveries made by the 1983 Nobel Prize Winner Barbara McClintock who discovered what are called transposable elements (TE) that scissor and paste ( Transposons) and copy paste (Retrotransposons). Genomic dynamics and changes or genomic /novelty mostly require Retrotransposons which move around in the host genome and convert their copied RNA into DNA of the genome by reverse transcription typically in a new site. Think how we edit a digital word doc by copy paste… No random mutation here. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Amazingly, 98% of the advanced eukaryote genome is made up of such non-coding transposable elements (mistakenly called junk DNA) while only 2% is protein coding. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">As TEs have viral software origins, this source of diversity can also be harmful to the genome and has to be kept under check by a stringent means. Many moons ago my FIS contribution called this <strong><em>genomic blockchain</em></strong> using a 21 century invention where digital record keeping can keep original blocks secure from internal and external (bilo)malware and evolve complexity that is not adversarial to the earlier blocks. Unlike manmade blockchain of Bitcoin, genomic blockchain operates on self-referential information processing. This can be found in 2022 complexification of eukaryote paper of mine </span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCcXSWFQ1$" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><span class="x_anchor-text"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; text-decoration: none;">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718</span></span></a> ...</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">All best regards</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Sheri</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;"> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Gordana Dodig Crnkovic<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, October 29, 2024 7:48 AM<br><strong>To:</strong> Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu><br><strong>Cc:</strong> fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div align="center">
<table class="x_MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100.0%;" border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width: 100.0%; background: #FDF2F4; padding: .6pt .6pt .6pt .6pt;" width="100%">
<div>
<p><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;">CAUTION:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; color: black;"> This email originated from outside our organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. If you are not sure it is safe, please contact the IT Helpdesk.</span></p>
</div></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Dear Peter and All,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">I want to comment on the “<strong>revision of the theory of evolution</strong>”.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">If you want details, let me know and I will send you a five-page file.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">The “revision” of the theory of evolution” sounds problematic, but it is the natural development of the theory. That is happening in all sciences all the time, and recently we have witnessed very important developments in the theory of evolution that I am convinced you will be able to explain in terms of cybernetics and feedback mechanisms. The inclusion of principles from <strong>complexity science</strong> and <strong>cybernetics</strong> supports the notion that evolutionary processes are more adaptable and responsive than Darwin’s original model, emphasizing interdependent feedback mechanisms.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">These advancements provide a broader, more integrative view of evolution, suggesting that the traditional model of random mutation and selection is only part of the story. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">What is typically considered </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">the </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">“theory of evolution” today is “<strong>Modern (neo-Darwinian) synthesis</strong>” which is also a “revision” of the original Darwin</span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">’</span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">s theory that added genes as a fundamental explanation mechanism.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Recent developments in the theory of evolution, particularly those proposed by scientists like <strong>Denis Noble, Eva Jablonka</strong>, and others are reshaping how we understand evolutionary processes beyond the classical framework of Modern (neo-Darwinian) synthesis. </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Here are some key recent advancements</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Denis Noble and the "Extended Evolutionary Synthesis" (EES)</span></strong></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Rethinking the Central Dogma</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">: Noble, a prominent physiologist, challenges the idea of the central dogma of molecular biology, which states that information flows only from DNA to RNA to protein. He suggests that biological processes are more interactive and interconnected, with feedback mechanisms that can allow information to flow in reverse and across different parts of a system.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Multi-level Selection and Interconnected Systems</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">: Noble’s research emphasizes that evolutionary change isn’t only driven by gene-level mutations but also by the organism’s interactions at multiple biological levels. This perspective argues that genes, cells, tissues, and organs can all influence evolutionary outcomes, challenging the reductionist view that genes alone determine phenotypes.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Evolutionary Processes Beyond Genes</span></strong></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Epigenetics and Plasticity</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">: The EES incorporates epigenetics—heritable changes in gene expression not driven by DNA sequence changes—as a significant factor. This flexibility allows organisms to respond more rapidly to environmental changes, which may also be passed on to offspring under certain conditions.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Niche Construction</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">: Another central concept of EES is niche construction, which is the process by which organisms actively shape their environments, which in turn influences their own evolution. For example, beavers create dams that transform local ecosystems, affecting not only their survival but also that of other species.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Emergent Behaviors and Self-Organization</span></strong></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Biological Complexity and Adaptation</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">: Agent-based approaches demonstrate how self-organized behaviors, which emerge from simple rules at the individual level, can lead to complex adaptation strategies. These emergent patterns are not always predictable from the initial conditions and suggest that evolution may have more directionality than previously thought.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Evolution as a Systemic Process</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">: Instead of viewing evolution as a linear, gene-centered process, newer models support the idea of evolution as a systemic process involving feedback loops and interactions across many levels of biological organization.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Interdisciplinary Approaches in Evolutionary Theory</span></strong></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Fields like <strong>systems biology</strong> and <strong>ecology</strong> are increasingly intersecting with evolutionary biology, highlighting that organisms and their environments evolve together in a dynamic feedback loop.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></strong></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Darwin's agential materials</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">, </span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2f37156924*2f&c=E,1,_5EkdnmYC7CYss96onPyTcRuIp4UjwaT12Tyd-C6q8pLL5x9mEBdNM__jMujN8CEyYcgMvPu9--_lPjOLmAnzvl03vWrRX10QRRZSeRS-XgMRg,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUsokdQo$">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37156924/</a></span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">The concept of an “agent approach” in evolutionary biology, where individual cells exhibit goal-directed behaviors or "agency," represents an intriguing shift in understanding living systems. This perspective, advanced Michael Levin and Denis Noble, proposes that cells and other biological units are not passive, deterministic entities but rather active participants with their own forms of "goals" and responsive behaviors. Here’s a look at the agent-based approach with this view of cellular agency.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">All the best,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Gordana</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
<div style="border: none; border-top: solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;">From: </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>><br><strong>Date: </strong>Tuesday, 29 October 2024 at 03:25<br><strong>To: </strong>"<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><br><strong>Cc: </strong>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br><strong>Subject: </strong>Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Dear Alex, Joe, Mark , and All:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I find the appearance of remarkable concepts in our discussion very challenging: perennial philosophy, revision of the theory of evolution, and postmodern French philosophy.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I am digesting your thoughts, and hope to send a more substantial post about 18 hours later.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Kind regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Peter</span></p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div id="x_Signature">
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,bz0FfE_9Ks00ng5llmcu6Y25y6S7P4sC0OrOYmZQM5UWQI5N99zuXQxwt9A9L4gv3v6R1AExli8BKikW_71JJsMMRngt_GhRIU8Z50Pzk7Ue&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCWNAwDTf$">http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V9pGWVnrGix8iYOTIEtL1iJbcL5my7XkJK-TOHuDN4ah3gtOBc-Na4v5AXVKEhgYcA6_avZLWIX1y7Ijlr1U2T3Z$">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="98%">
</div>
<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;"> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><strong>Sent:</strong> Sunday, October 27, 2024 6:16 AM<br><strong>To:</strong> Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><br><strong>Cc:</strong> Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>; fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback</span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Dear Mark and Peter, </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Your last two notes taken together, seem to me to offer a remarkable basis for further discussion. Both modify "circularity" in such a way (sic!) that there is just enough left of the simplistic notion of circle while focussing non-circular dynamics. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">The French philosopher Jean Baudrillard (1929 - 2007) suggested two antagonistic forms in reality in a 2004 book (my translation): </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Integral Reality: the irreversible movement of the totality of the world.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Dual Form: the internal reversibility of the irreversible movement of the Real.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">To avoid having to apply the overly semantic term of "contradictory" to these double, better recursive, movements, one may handle both by reference to the change of parts from actual to potential, and <em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif;">vice versa. </span></em></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">A further advance been made by the contemporary French philosopher Augustin Berque. He proposes complementing transduction by the more complex term <em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif;">trajection </span></em>which takes into account the logical implications of our own existence, Links are thus possible to logics "of the middle" like those of the Orient.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Joseph</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Le 27.10.2024 00:14 CEST, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Dear Alex and Peter</p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Perrenialism is very close to the biological theory articulated here: </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2farticles*2fPMC5037349*2f&c=E,1,N5VX3UCXn_QhFPtHJD3YaSm8xlCbXYiyVZMd9KMv43SUj9oNPVYuaJSE-BPXf0h12EjnUbT_jn1hwjK36LgSlthOe1dzUZvtlTXGwxIwv0rFYtJKFrQ,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCSEJil8T$">https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5037349/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Alex, this connection leapt out at me after reading your comment!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">It makes me wonder whether Darwinism haunts cybernetics. The view in the Torday/Miller paper suggests that the Darwinian paradigm of selection among phenotypes is incorrect, where instead phenotypes are agents of epigenetic inheritance in service to cellular internal selection, with the "perennial" zygote as the focus, not the phenotype.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">While there is an increasing body of empirical evidence to support a cell-based view of evolution (currently argued by Denis Noble, Philip Ball, as well as Torday and colleagues), maybe the important question is to ask what this might mean for the cybernetic thinking that Peter is discussing. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">A few points strike me as interesting:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">1. Circularity is a much better term than feedback, because it captures a deeper process of homeorhesis. But two questions concerning this are "what is stabilised?" and "who says?"</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">2. Transduction is a more precise name for the process implicated in "circularity". Behind that is conservation of energy on the one hand, and conversion of energy on the other. Cells and organisms are transducers, but the transduction process happens within them. It may operate with reference to the endogenised history of the cell in its own constitution. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">3. Transduction must involve both selection and niche construction. The selection is both internal, referencing the evolutionary history of the cell, and external in maintaining equipoise with the environment. This selection process is multidimensional, featuring stochasticity (see Denis Noble), signals, constraints and coordination. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">4. The transduction process relies on cells being observers of other cells and of themselves. It cannot work without self-reference. This is probably to restate the Conant-Ashby good regulator theorem, or Rosen's anticipatory systems, or Stafford Beer's "System 4" in the Viable System Model.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">5. Systems people get tied up in knots when failing to apprehend the dimensional difference between stochasticity (noise), signals, constraints and coordination. We need better conceptual tools for dealing with this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Mark</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, 09:39 Alex Hankey, <<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">Dear Peter, and Fis Members, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">About 1970, the Futurology Research Group under Dr. Willis Harman </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) showed that the only system of thought apparently able to save mankind from extinction was the Perennial Philosophy. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">Developments and events over the past half century, such as the Enron crisis, Bankruptcies of banks such as London's Barings Bank, caused by unauthorised investments by senior employees, or the climate crisis and deforestation of the Amazon, driven by corporate greed etc, suggest that this is true. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">I live in India, the only country that subscribes to the Perennial Philosophy as the foundation of its 5 main religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism, where I conduct research on the relationship between Science and Spirituality. I therefore feel that I can state with some authority that, by and large, India sets an example in a number of areas, which are consistent with the conclusions of Harman's futurology work at SRI. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">Looking at the violence being generated on different levels in North America, in the Middle East, in Russia, and by the Chinese Communist Party and its minions, we can see many threats to our future, some of which are ongoing, and others that promise to emerge before the end of the present decade. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">The Perennial Philosophy, as described in Aldous Huxley's book of that name, is embodied in the word's of Swami Vivekananda, one of India's greatest spiritual leaders in the late 19th century. Vivekananda stated, 'Man is born to become Divine'. He did not mean in the present life-time, but rather by gaining greater and greater experience of Life through the cycles of death and rebirth, each human soul holds the potential to make the transition from being bound by his/her thoughts, words and actions, to a level where by serving Divine levels, and acting in accordance with instructions received from the Divine, he / she rises to be on a level on a par with the Divine. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">Several of India's greatest spiritual teachers today exemplify that transition. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">By bringing their work to humanity as a whole, it may be possible to prevent our destruction, and enter a time of endless prosperity. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">But only by subscribing to the universal values of Truth, Goodness and Beauty (violently rejected by the CCP) can we hope for this to happen. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">All best wishes, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">Sincerely, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;">Alex Hankey </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: #0b5394;"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 05:01, Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Dear FISer: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Personal Intro:</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I am happily back in this community: I attended the 1994, 1996, and 2005 conferences. In the last twenty years, I have been active in the neural network community (<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fwww.inns.org*2ffellows-senior-members*2f&c=E,1,7FOnD4qB_uw6TuWoe9krf9vwGq-VMu-9IvPVcdetl6hyJyNI_oJzWyUwKGq3yFkB563b9dGFYFIHF4Us67ZezVyIYI_JG-uCak6A_g16ZqqGpCSzxSGmGduLOw,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCZeWJKhM$">https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/</a>). In the previous five years, I published three books, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFP9sLo6U$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/</a> , </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">The third is in press: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Feedback: How to Destroy or Save the World </span></strong><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://link.springer.com/book/9783031624384</a><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><span style="text-decoration: none;"> </span></a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">(There is a 20% discount code at checkout on <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/link.springer.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Szk4lYPkGi5BDvo8We0ODRu28kt6a19QJOVQUBkdaJRV_hLqwotelvKUE_hfvBDuedR8kcjhT7NR1WBbv80w-Q$" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> link.springer.com</a>: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">I9rXjXjXbr7UGE</span></em><span style="color: black;"> / Valid Oct 10, 2024 – Nov 7, 2024). The Foreword was written by Michael Arbib. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I hope you don't mind if I hope to have a lively discussion about both feedback control and its potential role in answering the question: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Will humanity survive, and will our grandchildren live in prosperity? Or should we worry about the possibility of humanity's extinction? </span></strong><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Hypothesis: </span></em><span style="color: black;">There is a narrow border between destruction and prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must find a fine-tuned balance between positive and negative feedback. My attempt is not to deal with the impossible task, to prove (certainly not in the spirit of formal feedback control theory), but to support the belief. Chapters 1 - 5 are about the historical roles of feedback control in nature, technology, and society. Chapters 6 and 7 discuss the dichotomy of destroying or saving the world and the role of feedback control in avoiding huge catastrophes. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I suggest starting the discussion with a specific topic, but I am open to any comments, initial remarks, etc. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 1: Norbert Wiener's Dream: Technology, Life, and Society</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">This chapter overviews the birth of Cybernetics as a general theory of </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">goal-seeking systems. It introduces the notion of positive and negative feedback and gives credit to the General Systems Theory, which gave a framework for integrating the natural sciences with the social sciences. Modern computers made possible the simulation of social systems based on causal relationships among state variables, leading to various predicted scenarios about the world's future, some pessimistic. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">One clear insight is that uncontrolled technological progress may negatively affect the environment, and we need to maintain a balance between economic growth and sustainability. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 2: Feedback Control in the History of Technology</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">This chapter gives an overview of the application of feedback control </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">throughout technological development. In technological systems, the goal is to ensure that some physical quantities, such as temperature, pressure, velocity, or altitude (and many others), show some desirable, prescribed behavior over time. Negative feedback stabilizes, while positive feedback amplifies even the initially minor differences. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Outriggers, mechanical clocks, steam engines, aviation technologies, and electronics are the main stages of progress toward the Space Travel Age. Feedback control systems played a crucial role in space exploration. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 3: Feedback Control in Biological Systems</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Feedback control is a fundamental tool at every level of the biological hierarchy, from cellular to socio-ecological systems. It ensures homeostasis by adopting a general mechanism for restoring certain states after a small perturbation. Dynamical diseases occur due to the impairment of control systems. The theory of nonlinear dynamics offers a mathematical framework to analyze pathological temporal patterns. It aims to find control strategies to shift the physiological parameters back into normal ranges. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 4: Climate Changes, Wildfires, Tsunamis</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">This chapter starts with analyzing the role of positive and negative feedback loops in climate systems. Self-reinforcing positive feedback loops could result in an irreversible tipping point when climate spins out of control, with catastrophic results. Reducing the chance of climate catastrophe must become a central focus for civilization today, and appropriate feedback control strategies should be implemented. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 5: From Laissez-Faire to Greenspan: Feedback Control in Economic Systems</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">This chapter analyzes a fundamental question: Should economics be controlled or not? Is the “invisible hand” and the self-regulation of free market capitalism the best possible mechanism, or does the economy need governmental intervention? Minsky’s hypothesis suggests that stability implies instability. It is an observational fact that the economy shows a cyclic pattern: business cycles with different frequencies </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">are very general. Uncompensated positive feedback is found to be a general mechanism leading to extreme events, among other hyperinflation. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 6: From Natural Disasters to Social Riots</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">This chapter starts with analyzing whether we should worry about the </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">possibility of existential risk. In the subsection about the complex system <em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif;">approach to political instability, several issues, namely terrorism, social unrest, and migration, are discussed. Finally, a short system-theoretical analysis implies that democracies do better than autocracies.</span></em> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 7: Epilogue: The Narrow Border Between Prosperity and Destruction</span></em><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Do we live in the best possible world or the shadow of existential risk? The answer is BOTH! To avoid disasters, we need to apply the spirit of feedback control. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">The ball is in your court, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Péter Érdi, October 20, 2024 </span></p>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</div>
<div id="x_x_m_1623905657489076922m_-8262190845165877122divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;"> Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">Sent:</span></strong> Friday, October 18, 2024 12:08 PM<br><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">To:</span></strong> Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>; 'fis' <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">Subject:</span></strong> Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback</span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Dear Peter,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Many thanks for your "pre-discussion" message.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">My suggestion to channel such a broad approach is to divide it into two parts.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">In the first one, the more scientific-technical part (what you mention about "the historical role of the concept of feedback".)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">No doubt there are many points of interest there.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">And later on, you could publish a second part about the related vision of the "big themes" and risks of our times.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">I think in this way the discussion may flow with some easiness. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">Otherwise we would be happy with whatever scheme you prefer.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">All the best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">--Pedro</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">El 17/10/2024 a las 22:25, Peter Erdi escribió:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Dear Pedro and Dear FIS Colleagues: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Thank you for your introduction (I will make some slight corrections). </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I will need several days to publish my formal introductory text. I would like to discuss with you my thesis: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif; color: black;">There is a narrow border between destruction and prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must find the fine-tuned balance between positive and negative feedback.</span></strong><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">I hope to discuss with you both the historical role of the concept of feedback and its possible contribution to destroying or saving the world. Apologies for the self-propaganda, I have a book in press <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFN2pCEni$" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438</a>4 will write a discount code, (apologies again). </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Stay tuned, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Péter Érdi </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Henry R. Luce Professor of Complex Systems Studies </span></p>
</div>
<div id="x_x_m_1623905657489076922m_-8262190845165877122x_Signature">
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,DXZxDUtw-vuIauMyxqq1G4QdM5IKx_WHJQK7kYtxUGgDE9KRjaIdG-4G0CXdcL1Ogi79GmYSABCYOreR5MR5UmqmpzGp4c__tnNT_bsMF5o8KvRrHTuQ&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCbiDEkbO$">http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKttEg2g$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ</a> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kzoo.edu/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFLJkHx4Q$" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Kalamazoo College</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="x_MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%">
</div>
<div id="x_x_m_1623905657489076922m_-8262190845165877122x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif; color: black;"> Fis <a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> on behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán <a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com></a><br><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">Sent:</span></strong> Thursday, October 17, 2024 9:58 AM<br><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">To:</span></strong> 'fis' <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener"> <fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br><strong><span style="font-family: 'Calibri',sans-serif;">Subject:</span></strong> [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback</span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p>Dear FIS Colleagues,</p>
<p>We may start a new discussion session during next days.</p>
<p>Title:</p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif;">Complexity and feedback: in nature, technology, and society</span></strong></p>
<p>Presenter:</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><strong><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif;">Peter Érdi</span></strong> <br>
Henry R. Luce Professor <br>
University of Kalamazoo (MI)</p>
<p>Greetings to all,</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">--Pedro <br>
-------------------------------------------------------------- <br>
Pedro C. Marijuán <br>
FIS Coordination <br><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif;">FIS Archives last 10 years:</span></em> <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fpipermail*2ffis*2f&c=E,1,WIf3BELTgtvnLFR__dZNKBPBmGkY9p535L-dnLn2GvzBazXmvkAn-VpOq5u47zl214lkW7Lo0xKiRRveHEsKRdNaGGJZ8wIsYeLQx3oDpOFN&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCXIO4KlN$">http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/</a> <br><em><span style="font-family: 'Aptos',sans-serif;">List of discussion sessions last 25 years:</span></em> <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2ffis.sciforum.net*2ffis-discussion-sessions*2f&c=E,1,SIU1_QkEFFA5jd36QjfKAZB390mFOLqhNZs110xrUmyNXE1eG0hmnA2R9h4Umjxd4g6imul2RTMk9WuoYkdonYEciShN5RJdWQrhXlNaIdT5wI0,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUYIcRz4$">https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/</a> <br>
-------------------------------------------------------------</p>
<div id="x_x_m_1623905657489076922m_-8262190845165877122x_x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<table class="x_MsoNormalTable" style="border: none; border-top: solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt;" border="1" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width: 41.25pt; border: none; padding: 9.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;" width="55">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHhgQVZWt$" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><strong><span style="text-decoration: none;">Error! Filename not specified.</span></strong></a></p></td>
<td style="width: 352.5pt; border: none; padding: 9.0pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;" width="470">
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="line-height: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #41424e;">Libre de virus.</span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #4453ea;"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHhgQVZWt$" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><span style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif; color: #41424e;"> </span></p>
</div></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">_______________________________________________ <br>
Fis mailing list <br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fcgi-bin*2fmailman*2flistinfo*2ffis&c=E,1,mv70eDHSkwzLq8dgfam2czStC0YWMIS79QqCFRUyP1WhvE9c2lJ36ASdeVyf_Jx1LvrgZJOzHqbhoGlSahgP23npVgV9EsTRZnRBHgmDJXg,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCYVnQtnv$">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a> <br>
---------- <br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br><br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,6G6ZQz0RPY6TZcqL0mb1ZAbIBxfLKHdYsJBnWTqHauidCB4HhHy6iKuvtyAjCclOvEcXbwOGTBVxx08SHXEMPsuu08Qfil3AnIvrx-Uz4D_qitRg&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCbDXujsi$"> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a> <br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee. <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es&c=E,1,YXQoZT9wBP7dSoYNK3cmG_BitzLJhQgXDHcoPMROmqWLwT5ixaIIbggsa4JApmBPOH8L-Qsdttiojxb0RV0F2yZE1YDNdKu3iOXuQRi1taChWDh2cb8,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCVReAzdT$">http://listas.unizar.es</a> <br>
----------</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><br clear="all"><br><span class="x_xgmailsignatureprefix">-- </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) Professor Emeritus of Biology,</span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">MIT World Peace University, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038 </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195 </span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789 </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9.5pt;">_________________________ </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">_______________________________________________ <br>
Fis mailing list <br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fcgi-bin*2fmailman*2flistinfo*2ffis&c=E,1,TsCQNEmCOuZKOQvCbrzx6CoolqtAKQ9nsVCRP9uXc05LCAcTwXm9cFGaQRwivVkAJlmMISilG-XDZ30qJklosnhFYqYIVwnaqWfTEvnKaDQQ&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCQwKtgYy$">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a> <br>
---------- <br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br><br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,bmJ6tVoxDQAwuBGwJS1ekFnC1AyN1BBTKbD9asEc0jj70FkAubugyyZQG85ILllopZpqwnTV0uMlN4T5Zi5nCWN3hGQsUtM_bbVR_CdPLoFxzvtK80FDQA1q1g,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCZRHQizV$"> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a> <br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee. <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es&c=E,1,qnJ7Q2VlMQy35GyRhGrnYKFtiCuy8h3OaNbI6H4gFYHJttlaceH3wHQnsBJDImSQyE4yordrcEv-ILooykMK0oV-naz9le6G4UjbqxdL&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCe5-M6om$">http://listas.unizar.es</a> <br>
----------</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">_______________________________________________ <br>
Fis mailing list <br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fcgi-bin*2fmailman*2flistinfo*2ffis&c=E,1,qfHi-RsKn-n5GMX3bV7SCVzAtRgOhpBxHMjHZcGutJ8zSCT1Vdu8YZVYXtTM44WxK3khdTSMLEE61mfrJsG9XnTVSz6Ixh8x5n2Qt-bMpE77sGkeW4BlYT4DTA,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCWyIgSbt$">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a> <br>
---------- <br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br><br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,kWI0MEZ9dW5CN9ZSM-JY4_-ru91gk3uGVvR5KpRl_n7CMhTiEVNzukiwShSIC4OWiTx_8t6GNOWiec8COrFWBcwXcj7rXyt4lBh4zSOOZmVe&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCappxOuy$"> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a> <br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee. <br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es&c=E,1,SIKGlP8kO8R205ckBWzoOWfKkMXZK7rc3YG2RjOSkatnfgd2fu-P-oEuGlhYvAkYlT9or28k2eyKuABCR7cbL1E-7-CM-h5yj8Zg2wj6ffdihXsDqcNwBoE,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCeL39lbT$">http://listas.unizar.es</a> <br>
----------</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div> _______________________________________________
<br>
Fis mailing list
<br>
Fis@listas.unizar.es
<br>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
<br>
----------
<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
<br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br>
http://listas.unizar.es
<br>
----------
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>