<div dir="auto">Dear Pedro, Dear All,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">What synchronicitous timing. I was about to send something similar, which I've now all deleted as it became redundant with your mail — leaving us with only the pointer I had wanted to include for everyone to consider in the interest of avoiding what would become situationally highly ironic amplification of accidental mutual miscommunication:</div><div dir="auto">Systemspedia, the online version of the second edition of the International Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics (which sadly compared to the print version lacks all the references), has QUITE a few articles on the words "feedback", and one on the word feedforward — certainly a very useful resource for everyone to (re)consult as part of the discourse here, here:</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.systemspedia.com/?letter=F__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UkC8e1HI_0d4yiML-scDAVL2UK2rWxrOLoyly3-4UDwkHjGLGEV-9yvr4hqlHmwnKXY8ZpJul70J5sRHfluZx80$">http://www.systemspedia.com/?letter=F</a></div><div dir="auto"><br></div>Best,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">A<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, 22:14 Pedro C. Marijuán, <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<div>Dear Peter and FIS colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just a very brief point to you and the
list, and it is to be patient along the discussion, for the
diversity of views generates quite interesting contrasts and we
all can learn... so please, let us go ahead. And let us see how
the discussion self-organizes. Recently a lovable French quotation
came to my view: "On ne règne sur les âmes que par le calme."
Personally I am very interested in your argumentative strategy in
the book, but that should be left for more advanced time of the
discussion.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best--Pedro</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 24/10/2024 a las 21:22, Peter Erdi
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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Dear Jerry and All:</div>
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Thank you for your comments. The mathematics of the feedback
process is related to Control Theory, a branch of applied math
that is applied to technological systems as well as biological
and social systems. I hope I understood and answered your
question briefly.</div>
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<br>
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Your comments on language... Of course, a newcomer (sort of)
should know and accept the community's explicit and implicit
rules. Still, I respectfully disagree. Cybernetics and
information theory opened a new world using a new vocabulary;.
At the same time, physics is based on concepts such as mass,
force, energy, velocity, etc., and the new fields of the ninety
forties introduced concepts such as feedback, control,
communication, information, code, etc. We also have systems
theory. Simple systems transform input into output., while
complex systems characterized by circular causality use feedback
loops. I might be wrong, but I don't see why chemical systems
cannot process or even create information. Autocatalysis in
chemical kinetics implements positive feedback, and as you know
much better than I do, it is an elementary building block in
evolution.</div>
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<br>
</div>
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Apologies, I skip the question related to model logic and ...
The correspondence is already too diverging, and ...</div>
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<br>
</div>
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I am inclined to accept that my introductory text did not
generate a helpful, converging discussion, so if the community
or Pedro himself feels that we should stop, let's do it.
Otherwise, I am open to continuing the correspondence.I have
already learned a lot.</div>
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Kind regards,</div>
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Peter</div>
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<br>
</div>
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<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_7154504885425442565divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Jerry
LR Chandler <a href="mailto:jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24, 2024 10:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> fis <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter Erdi <a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity
& feedback. Loops (OFF-LINE)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="line-break:after-white-space">Peter, List:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This discussion is unfolding rather strangely from the
perspective of 3 rd Order Biocybernetics as well as 2 nd Order
cybernetics.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Peter, it would be very helpful to explicitly express the
mathematical foundations that you are alluding to in the
overlapping semiologies of cyclic processes. In particular,
it is unclear to me what, when, and where the termini are
interacting in the looping processes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Secondly, FIS traditional usage of language is referenced
to engineering physics. In general, participants use concepts
“baked into” physical terms and concepts and philosophical
history (e.g. entropy). Any usage of either chemical or
biochemical semiology is a priori rejected as irrelevant to
information theory.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thirdly, an obscure question related to AI. What are your
views on modal logic with respect to your philosophy of
cybernetics? More precisely, do these circumscriptions of
(natural?) processes admit the usage of double negations? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div>Jerry </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br id="m_7154504885425442565x_lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 23, 2024, at 8:31 PM, Peter Erdi
<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu></a> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
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Thank you, Joe! Thank you Karl!</div>
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<br>
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Joe: could you summarize what we should learn from
Gian-Franco Minati in a paragraph or two? I knew the
name, but don't really know his works. He is young (b.
1951.), but I don't find newer items since 2008"<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.geocities.ws/lminati/gminati/index.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sm8PbLyGbeJ14NVMsUO1jrVsS0ccT6ZcHc963C8IEqeRBlmijxp34VaHyM-MQz3TOnpRP22X9Hc4bVKF3g-qvP5-$" id="m_7154504885425442565LPlnk353885" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://www.geocities.ws/lminati/gminati/index.html</a></div>
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<br>
</div>
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Karl: oh, "circular algorithms"! I should read more
closely.</div>
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+++</div>
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<br>
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I am somewhat disappointed; it looks like I did not
manage to elicit a more focused discussion. Using the
language of feedback control: the actual outcome
deviates from my expectations, so I should improve my
input to get a better result.</div>
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<br>
</div>
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To be more specific, let's see whether or not several
paragraphs from the chapter about Feedback Control in
the Economic Process will initiate more responses. I
promise I will not copy more large items from the
book:</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<br>
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+++</div>
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<br>
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<i>Feedback is the transmission and return of
information about the “state” of a system, i.e.,
about the amount of “stuff” accumulated in each of a
system’s stocks over time. This information travels
throughout a system and eventually returns to the
flows that fill or drain the stocks, thus closing
the system’s feedback loops. Generally speaking, the
information being transmitted via feedback loops is
used by agents to make decisions that alter a
system’s flows and cause the system to adapt its
behavior over time.</i></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<br>
</div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><i>Positive feedback
represents self-reinforcing processes and is
generally responsible for systems’ growth or
decline.<span> </span></i></span><span style="font-size:11pt"><i>Economic growth trends,
multiplier processes, accelerator relationships,
wage-price spirals, speculative bubbles, bandwagon
effects, increasing returns, path-dependent
processes, and anything that can be described as a
vicious or virtuous circle can be represented with
positive feedback loops. Financial panics and
market crashes are examples of positive feedback
in markets that head in a negative direction.
Bubbles are positive feedback loops that instead
send prices higher. From a psychological
perspective, reinforcing feedback is also a
self-fulfilling prophecy. It is a form of
reinforcing feedback that results from the
interaction between the economy and agents’
perceptions and expectations.</i></span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
...</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<br>
</div>
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<i>Negative loops, on the other hand, represent
goal-seeking processes and many types of purposeful
behavior. They can either stabilize systems or cause
them to oscillate when their corrective action is
delayed (by stocks). As such, negative loops are
responsible for such phenomena as the “invisible
hand” equilibrating processes of well-functioning
markets and the unstable behavior of macroeconomic
cycles.</i></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">
<i><br>
</i></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">
<i>++++</i></div>
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<i><br>
</i></div>
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All the best,</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">
Peter</div>
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<br>
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<br>
</div>
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<div id="m_7154504885425442565x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span> </span>Karl
Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Wednesday,
October 23, 2024 5:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>Peter
Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>;
fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity &
feedback. Loops (OFF-LINE)</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Dear Péter,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Years flow by, and we keep
discussing the same basic question of how our
concepts are related, and how the relationships
among our concepts picture the relationships we
assume to be present in Nature. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The improvement in the discussion
since 1995 is, in my eyes, that we can now name
in detail what our problems are. We have found
the relations among natural numbers which are
depicting an interdependent interaction among
the symbols as such. Whether we use the natural
numbers as a kind of Laws Carved In Stone, as
Nature certainly seems to do, is our decision.
Pythagoras is heavily behind the idea. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Alex gives a tour d'horizon about
the philosophic-theological background of our
time. What I read out of his essay is that a
great paradigm change is overdue.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">To Joseph, with great respect. The
circularities that undeniably affect our habitat
(et nos in illis) should be accepted as
fundamental rules for our physiology, neurology.
(breath, eat, sleep are periodic - circular). It
looks like a clever idea to embed our psychology
in the factual limits - constraits - structure
that physiology and neurology build. If a fish
has a philosophy, according to which it uses
legs and a tail to hunt on treetops, that fish
gives too much credence to its reasoning and not
enough credence to its observations.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In my latest summary,</div>
<div dir="auto"> Liaisons Among Symbols,
Javorszky, K. (2024). Liaisons Among Symbols.
Curr Res Stat Math, 3(3), 01-08,</div>
<div dir="auto">this is explained in more detail.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The paradigm changes have already
happened. It is possible to exchange ideas about
circular processes and which inbuilt patterns of
coincidences one can expect. In fact, one-armed
bandits operate day and night eg in Las Vegas.
Only the mathematics behind the empirical
existence of concurrently operating cycles has
not been publicly discussed yet. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">A great intellectual revolution
worth it's name comes always with the aha!
experience of something of course easy,
self-evident and trivial, once one gets the
principles.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In our case, the perspective
change is like that one initiated by Copernic
and Galileo. </div>
<div dir="auto">1. Use a collection of related
individuals </div>
<div dir="auto">2. Use eg the values a, b of the
sentence a+b=c</div>
<div dir="auto">3. Order and reorder the
collection </div>
<div dir="auto">4. Find cycles </div>
<div dir="auto">5. Organise the cycles </div>
<div dir="auto">6. Use the numeric facts of there
being different support-demand situations for
statements about the collection that refer to
observations enumerable by using identical units
(Sumerian type of counting) relative to the
statements about the collection that refer to
observations enumerable by using different units
(Akkadian type of counting). </div>
<div dir="auto">7. Once there is too much space
for so much diversity, once the diversity
doesn't fit in the space. </div>
<div dir="auto">8. This is all in tables,
comparable to the trigonometric tables. </div>
<div dir="auto">9. Your students can write a
Tautomat in less than two weeks. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thank you for bringing up classic
cases wherein the relationship between parts and
wholes can only be discussed if one has a symbol
set made up of different units. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">As to the eye-catcher of how
mistakes, misallocations and the like happen
during the functioning of a feedback based
system, may I politely pose the following
suggestion :</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Let us build a feedback based
circular system that functions, at first. Let us
investigate in a subsequent step, what are
critical components of that system. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Best wishes</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Karl </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Recuerde
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<span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">----------</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
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