<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Stu, yes the relationship between quantum mechanics and intentionality is fascinating <div>Best </div><div>Eric </div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On May 17, 2024, at 16:35, Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Eric your experience with the lion cubs and mother is quite stunning. Dean Radin and his colleagues ask the subject to TRY to alter then ratio of the central light and dark bands in the two slit experiment. The result is a weak effect but 6.49 sigma overall. “Intentions” seem to matter. <div><br></div><div>Stu<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On May 17, 2024, at 12:37 AM, OARF <eric.werner@oarf.org> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="auto">One more life experience about intentional states:<div><br></div><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I was working on a theory of animal communication and </span>was at a zoo some years ago watching a mother lion interact with her cubs. She called to them with pulsing breaths like a „pfiff pfuff“. I decided to just look intensely at the cubs but with the intention of harming or taking them. The mother lion looked at me. Got up. And started to approach me. She started to growl. With each step toward me, her snarls increased in strength and intensity. Luckily for me, she was in a cage.</div><div><br></div><div>Intention and the capacity to have intentions, to recognize and represent the intentions of others must be an ancient one. It is part of the fabric of all social human and animal life. </div><div><br></div><div>And the interaction of intentions is a kind of entanglement analogous to the quantum world in which we exist.</div><div><br></div><div>-Eric<br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On May 17, 2024, at 9:18 AM, OARF <eric.werner@oarf.org> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Yes Stu, perhaps our intentional states when viewed analogous to QM entangled states also „Collapse“ whey we (the agents) act in concert with other agent‘s entangled intentional Status. Thus social state viewed as a Kantian whole goes through a continual process of entanglement and instantiation or collapse. Information plays a role in that it sets the very possibility of having intentions and being able to fulfill them. <div><br></div><div>Interesting is the phenomenon of staring at some one and they turn toward you. </div><div>Weird but there may be something to it. </div><div><br></div><div>The notion of „trying“ or the attempted execution of an intentional state does interact with the goal system that one is attempting to transform. </div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Eric<br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On May 16, 2024, at 3:44 PM, Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Eric this is very interesting. Please build on “entangled”. In Stuart Kauffman and Andre Roli,”What is Consciousness?”, J. Linnean Society 2023, we explore how humans can carry out multistep jury-rigging. Here there are no “local clues” that one is improving. One needs somehow to “find” or “glimpse" the total solution because no steps are deductive. Andrea and I find ourselves suggesting that mind is quantum, entangles with the world, then “I” collapse the wave function and experience the single state as a qualia. It may work. Dean Radin and colleagues have data that a human by “trying” can alter the outcome of the two slit experiment. The effect is weak, but summed over 24 experiments that data stand at 6.49 sigma. Mind may play a role in the becoming of the universe. Check his results.<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Stu<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On May 16, 2024, at 2:58 AM, Eric Werner <eric.werner@oarf.org> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><p>Dear Kate and All,</p><p>Big heading too much to say, not enough time or space to put this
in an email. So some short points:</p><p>1. Emotions occur in the context of a social-physical space of
possibilities. The emotions cover this space evaluating it in
multiple dimensions. <br>
</p><p>2. The social space includes the intentional states of the agents
interacting in that space. <br>
</p><p>3. There is an intimate relationship between information,
intention, and ability underlying the emotional space or
capacity. They form a complex multidimensional system that cannot
be easily reduced without loss of the overall architecture. And
loss of understanding of how it all fits together. <br>
</p><p>4. The social mind has representations of this structure to be
able to act in its social-physical world. <br>
</p><p>5. Kate opens a door that allows us to look at this complex
social-mental entangled system.</p><p>6. When say entangle I mean something analogous but not identical
to QM. It is a hyper-space of entangled strategies that underlie
the intentional-evaluative states of agents acting in the social
space. <br>
</p><p>7. There is certainly are logics involved: The logic of can, the
logic of cooperative ability, the logic of intentions. These are
time-dependent logics. But these logics need to interact in the
reasoning social minds. <br>
</p><p>8. Is there a logic of emotions? If so it probably goes beyond a
binary or ternary or even a multi-valued ones.<br>
</p><p>My warm greetings to all you brilliant people. </p><p>We are all experts with varying degrees of intersections and
commonalities. With a lot of patience we may make some significant
discoveries on the nature of the social mind. <br>
</p><p>-Eric Werner <br>
</p><p><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ericwerner.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UdK6lr46N75z7LB7DVAwITiZYScuLgYRkx6MQA2kDHeCCF5-yEM14bJU8aD_wqIDKuCkuGCqYT8BEPqPLmYKUyI$" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://ericwerner.com</a>
-if you want to see some relevant articles to my way of looking at
this complex topic. <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/13/24 10:37 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1934032819.9489.1715589449184@bluewin.ch">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<font size="3">Dear Lou and All,</font>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Basarab Nicolescu (1942 - ), friend and
continuator of Stéphane Lupasco, deserves the historical
credit for showing that the "logic of the included middle" of
the latter can be seen as a superposition of physical states
in the macroscopic domain. </font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">The "middle" in question is "half-way" between
the actualization (presence) and potentialization (absence) of
real contradictorial physical phenomena, such as emotions,
with the caveat that the absolute ideal limits (0 and 1) of
either are not attained.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">In my reformulation of this logic as "Logic in
Reality", I have suggested that this concept applies in
principle to complex phenomena. such as information,
processes, or other wider contexts in Lou's term. An example
of one such context would be useful to help focus this part of
the debate.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Unfortunately, the principle is not applied in
practice, with the result that complex changing phenomena are
usually described in the static terms of standard, value-free
logic. Partial exceptions can be found in the work of Aerts
and Khrennikov, but their real-world applications are again
too limited (constructed). </font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">I would greatly value Kate's view as to
whether she sees the components of emotion as following
something like the laws of the "spaces" that Lou describes
here, and to which my logic gives a possible physical
interpretation.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Thank you and best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Joseph <br>
</font>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">----Message
d'origine----<br>
De : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a><br>
Date : 13/05/2024 - 09:53 (E)<br>
À : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a><br>
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com">alexhankey@gmail.com</a><br>
Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil<br>
<br>
Indeed one can formulate “quantum logic” without quantum
theory.
<div> One way is to incorporate the notion of
superposition in the logic so that A v B is a superposition
of states from A and from B.
</div>
<div> This can be axiomatized or one can use models
such as vector spaces or lattices that exhibit the
appropriate properties.
</div>
<div> For example, let V be a vector space over a
field F with an inner product structure <a|b> for
vectors a and b in V.
</div>
<div> Consider the collection L of subspaces of V.
</div>
<div> If A and B are subspaces of V, define ~A to be
the orthogonal complement of A with respect to the inner
product on V.
</div>
<div> Let A v B denote the subspace spanned by A and
B.
</div>
<div> Let A ^ B denote the intersection of the
subspaces A and B.
</div>
<div> Thus L is closed under v and ^ and ~.
</div>
<div> You can then verify that
</div>
<div> A v ~A = V
</div>
<div> A ^ ~A = 0 (the 0 subspace)
</div>
<div> ~ ~A = A
</div>
<div> The distributive law does not hold.
</div>
<div> Such a structure gives a quantum physical logic
when F is the complex numbers, but can be used as a
non-distributive logic in wider contexts.
</div>
<div> The same is the case for various lattice
models.
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
<div> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> On May 12, 2024, at 10:13 AM, <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
wrote: </div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div> <font size="3">Dear Mark,
Plamen and others who have referred to a quantum or
quantum kind of logic,</font>
<div> <font size="3"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3">I follow your
thought and insights, but your use of the term
"quantum" is superfetatory. What I think you are
looking for is a logic whose terms, like those of
quantum logic, do not commute or distribute. </font>
</div>
<div> <font size="3"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3">What is true
of the quantum domain is true analytically -
particle-wave duality, <i>etc. </i>What
is true of the thermodynamic domain - actuality
moving to potentiality and <i>v.v. </i>is
true synthetically. Its logic is a dynamic logic
of processes, not quanta, and</font> <span style="font-size: inherit;"> the terms of
such a dynamic process logic can be said to
"breathe", accordingly.</span> </div>
<div> <font size="3"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3">Best,</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3">Joseph<br>
</font>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0.0px;margin-left: 15.0px;"> ----Message d'origine---- <br>
De : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>
<br>
Date : 12/05/2024 - 14:54 (E) <br>
À : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>
<br>
Cc : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>,
<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>
<br>
Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from
Katherine Peil <br>
<br>
Thank you all, for this exciting turn in the
echo of Katherine’s topic.
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> With breathing the subject
becomes much more interesting indeed.
Particularly if we want to be in control of
the lower self feelings. The quantum kind of
logic might make sense in rationalizing the
gain and spending of energy to perform certain
tasks. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Alex, can you help with some good
references for laymen pranayama crash courses?
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Best, </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Plamen <br>
<div dir="ltr"> <br>
<blockquote type="cite"> On May 12,
2024, at 11:08 AM, Mark Johnson < <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: <br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto"> Dear Alex and
Lou,
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> This seems to
be much closer to the point - thank
you. </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> Lou - I wonder
if your question is a way of asking
"is it possible to design a system
that 'breathes'?" </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> Current AI
systems clearly do not. Our emotions
do (As does music). </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> I'm intrigued
by the possibility that there might be
a quantum logic of breathing -
something which is homologous to the
function of the autonomic nervous
system? </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> One aspect to
this which I think is important and
which gets lost in discussion about
emotions is that we breathe (and feel)
together, and not alone. </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> Best wishes </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> Mark </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"> On
Sun, 12 May 2024, 08:43 Louis
Kauffman, < <a style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204) solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;line-break: after-white-space;">
Dear Alex,
<div> I agree with you. It
is possible to design structures
supported by digital systems that
have their structure maintained by
response to perturbations. </div>
<div> There are very
elementary cellular automata that
are like that. </div>
<div> Then we might have
things like large language models
that simulate biological systems
with instability correction that
verges on “experience” and
“emotions”. </div>
<div> Such systems could
report on their own internal
states, as we do. But present
systems are not founded in this
way. </div>
<div> Best, </div>
<div> Lou <br>
<div> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> On May 12,
2024, at 2:03 AM, Alex
Hankey < <a style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: times new roman , serif;font-size: large;color: rgb(11,83,148);">
RE: </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: times new roman , serif;font-size: large;color: rgb(11,83,148);">
1. My take on the
self-regulatory function
emotion suggests that
the dual “purposes” of
self-preservation and
adaptive
self-development (both
mediated by Negative ~
Positive categories of
emotions) are rooted in
<i>ancient
information signaling
and memory systems</i>.
<div> 2. Is any
subjectivity involved
in information
processing? At what
point is it purely
mechanical? </div>
<div> 3. And
once again, where does
the <i>semantic
value</i> enter the
picture? Not-self
pathogens? Too hot,
too cold? <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> None of
these questions are
dealt with in terms of
digital information in
organisms of any kind.
Organisms treat them
in terms of
'Experience
Information', which is
entirely different,
being based on
naturally occurring
Instabilities in
organism response
systems, which cannot
support Digital
Information (for
obvious reasons), and
which are present to
enable the organism to
satisfy the
requirements of
Fractal Physiology. <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span> <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<span style="font-family: arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;border-collapse: collapse;"><span style="font-family: times new roman , serif;font-size: large;color: rgb(11,83,148);"></span>Alex
Hankey M.A.
(Cantab.) PhD</span>
<span style="font-family: arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;border-collapse: collapse;"> (M.I.T.)
DSc. (Hon Causa) </span>
<span style="font-family: arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;border-collapse: collapse;">Professor
Emeritus of Biology,</span>
<div> <span style="font-family: arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;border-collapse: collapse;"> MIT
World Peace
University, </span>
</div>
<div> <span style="font-family: arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;border-collapse: collapse;">124 Paud
Road, Pune, MA
411038 </span> </div>
<div> <span style="font-family: arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;border-collapse: collapse;">Mobile
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<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UdK6lr46N75z7LB7DVAwITiZYScuLgYRkx6MQA2kDHeCCF5-yEM14bJU8aD_wqIDKuCkuGCqYT8BEPqPrVEqQT0$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
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</div></blockquote></div><br></div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Fis mailing list</span><br><span>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span><br><span>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span><br><span>----------</span><br><span>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL</span><br><span></span><br><span>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</span><br><span>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span><br><span>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</span><br><span>http://listas.unizar.es</span><br><span>----------</span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Fis mailing list</span><br><span>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span><br><span>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span><br><span>----------</span><br><span>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL</span><br><span></span><br><span>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</span><br><span>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span><br><span>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</span><br><span>http://listas.unizar.es</span><br><span>----------</span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>