<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Dear Mark,</div>At this point, I use up this week’s quota.<div class="">It is certainly possible to design a system, e.g. a cellular automaton, that has a condition of homeostasis and will react to perturbations by restoring its structure up to a point.</div><div class="">The original Maturana, Uribe,Varela model has this property. And here is a more complex example.</div><div class="">I am using Golly.</div><div class=""><div class="">Golly runs Conway Life and variants of it.</div><div class="">Programming it at the simplest level is just entering a code like I write below that specifies a rule.</div><div class="">You can download it for free from the site</div></div><div class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://golly.sourceforge.io__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RixRO7_2ovnEvpuN3QzG6PaKCn2efieAHoiA3qQH_HMz3GjjX5ETx7cdpTYBUHxk3Fk-wSbZEW8ODXYd$" class="">https://golly.sourceforge.io</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My design is called “stasis” and has the rule</div><div class="">B37/S4567</div><div class="">This means that a box is born if it has 3 or 7 neighbors and survives if it has 4,5,6 or 7 neighbors.</div><div class="">This is on a rectangular grid.</div><div class="">The resulting configurations can grow quite large but they usually reach an “eigenstate” that is just oscillating and not growing.</div><div class="">If you perturb this state, the “animal” will react to go back to homeostasis.</div><div class="">Try it!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Of course such models are very simple, but they do “breathe” and if we had a big system that was alive in this sense it could “experience” its own</div><div class="">Wanderings toward and away from the eigenform.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 12, 2024, at 4:07 AM, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" class="">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Dear Alex and Lou,<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">This seems to be much closer to the point - thank you. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Lou - I wonder if your question is a way of asking "is it possible to design a system that 'breathes'?"</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Current AI systems clearly do not. Our emotions do (As does music). </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">I'm intrigued by the possibility that there might be a quantum logic of breathing - something which is homologous to the function of the autonomic nervous system?</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">One aspect to this which I think is important and which gets lost in discussion about emotions is that we breathe (and feel) together, and not alone. </div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Best wishes</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Mark</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 12 May 2024, 08:43 Louis Kauffman, <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" class="">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">Dear Alex,<div class="">I agree with you. It is possible to design structures supported by digital systems that have their structure maintained by response to perturbations.</div><div class="">There are very elementary cellular automata that are like that.</div><div class="">Then we might have things like large language models that simulate biological systems with instability correction that verges on “experience” and “emotions”.</div><div class="">Such systems could report on their own internal states, as we do. But present systems are not founded in this way.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 12, 2024, at 2:03 AM, Alex Hankey <<a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">RE: </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">1. My take on the self-regulatory function emotion suggests that the
dual “purposes” of self-preservation and adaptive self-development
(both mediated by Negative ~ Positive categories of emotions) are rooted
in <i class="">ancient information signaling and
memory systems</i>.<div class="">2. Is any
subjectivity involved in information processing? At what point is it
purely mechanical?</div>
<div class="">3. And once again, where does the <i class="">semantic value</i> enter the picture?
Not-self pathogens? Too
hot, too cold? <br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">None of these questions are dealt with in terms of digital information in organisms of any kind. Organisms treat them in terms of 'Experience Information', which is entirely different, being based on naturally occurring Instabilities in organism response systems, which cannot support Digital Information (for obvious reasons), and which are present to enable the organism to satisfy the requirements of Fractal Physiology. <br class=""></div>
</div><br class=""><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class=""><span style="font-family:times new roman,serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)" class=""></span>Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class=""> (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class="">Professor Emeritus of Biology,</span><div class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class="">
MIT World Peace University, </span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class="">124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038 </span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class="">Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195 </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class=""></span><div class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class="">Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789 </span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class="">WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse" class=""><div style="font-size:12.8px" class="">_________________________</div></span></div></div></div></div></div>
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