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<p>Dear Aaron,</p>
<p>Fascinating topics that you have introduced: Metamorphosis and
Synapse complexity. </p>
<p>Looking at the redistribution of neurons during metamorphosis
seems to me to be explainable by cell signaling and genome
control. It is well known that cell signaling and gradients are
utilized to given direction and positioning of neuronal
connections. It seems not a big step to have some neurons
de-differentiate and then grow to assume new connections with
other neurons in the adult flying insect. While wonderfully
complex orchestration of the symphony of life it does seem to be
explainable without the requirement of a new physics.</p>
<p>As for the role of synapse logic in brain function, I agree there
is definitely something very interesting going on there. Grant has
illuminated a new resource enabling a more sophisticated form of
mental-physical information processing. <br>
</p>
<p>I also like your reference to Ganti and the minimal form of life.
How do you see Ganti's work in relationship to von Neumann's self
reproducing automata? <br>
</p>
<p>The fact Ganti could be considered a minimalist or essentialist
in trying to give the minimal properties that any life form must
have, appears to go counter to the what appears to be your
argument that life is highly complex, so complex that it requires
a new theory of physics. <br>
</p>
<p>And how does this all fit with Kate's views on the evolution of
the emotional brain?<br>
</p>
<p>With kind regards,</p>
<p>Eric Werner<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/27/24 12:18 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:a.sloman@bham.ac.uk">a.sloman@bham.ac.uk</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:202404262218.43QMIY1M011191@cca-151308.cs.bham.ac.uk">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Dear Gordana (and Fis),
I apologise for the format of this message if anyone finds it difficult. I find
it very difficult to cope with the format of the Fis messages, which I have to
transform radically in order to be able to reply quoting parts, in the ancient
programmable text editor (part of Poplog) which I use on Linux for reading and
writing messages and other work, e.g. developing web sites.
I apologise for any errors or obscurities introduced by my re-formatting of
Gordana's text.
I am responding to the message in which she wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Dear Joseph
Let me comment on the following statement in your mail:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">You also introduce computability in an area where non-computability - the
absence of an algorithm - perhaps predominates.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Allow me to disagree.
Algorithm is not what it used to be -- the Turing Machine. Our late colleague,
mathematician Mark Burgin has written extensively on that topic.
I suppose you refer to this passage in Kate's mail:
"wherein the ongoing cyclic transitions between them form the computational
engine of The Tao. This dance delivers the algorithmic logic of Turing machines,
and the opponent processes, metastability and regulatory switching, evident in
metabolism, morphogenesis, genetic and the autonomic neural networks embody
behavioral control."
There is a way to represent all natural processes as computation -- natural
computation, natural information processing.
If we look at the physiological (bio-chemical) processes underlying emotions,
feelings, and other sub-symbolic processes in the human body, all of them can be
represented as information processes.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
I have very recently taken that last idea much further and argued that the
oldest and most important forms of information processing in animals on this
planet are located in synapses, which are descendants of the most most ancient
ancestors of animals, including humans: single celled organisms, which later
evolved to the sexually reproducing single-celled organisms discussed by Tibor
Ganti in his book The Principles of Life, referenced in the huge, unfinished,
online document in which I am developing these ideas, referring to a vast, and
steadily increasing number of other sources:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/metamorphosis.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqvuMG5UA$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/metamorphosis.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqvuMG5UA$</a>
(search in it for "Ganti" for references to his work and to commentaries on it.)
My claim (strongly influenced by the work of Seth Grant and colleagues in
Edinburgh University -- also referenced in that document, whose ideas I have
extended) is that the most powerful forms of information processing used in
cognition in animals, including humans, occur in synapses, with neurons having
important but subsidiary roles, including transferring information between
synapses and other, more recently evolved, parts of animal bodies. There are
also other forms of communication and control, e.g. using hormones transmitted
via blood vessels.
Gordana wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Michael Levin and collaborators have practical applications in their work in
biology and medicine. <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drmichaellevin.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqJ6BmNk8$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drmichaellevin.org/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqJ6BmNk8$</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
That is important and impressive work, but seriously incomplete, in my view,
e.g. ignoring processes that have evolved in branching trajectories in species
that reproduce by laying eggs enclosed in shells, and emerge with very complex
physiological structures and significant unlearnt cognitive competences, e.g.
many species of newly hatched birds and reptiles, including sea-turtles emerging
from eggs buried in sand and abandoned by their mothers.
As far as I know Levin has not mentioned or offered explanations for the
phenomena I've mentioned (and there's much more that I haven't mentioned). I've
written to him about this. He has also heard me give presentations on some of
the ideas, but not the most recent ones mentioned below.
I have not been using the word "algorithm" in connection with the biological
information processing mechanisms. Instead I talk about varieties of information
processing, especially processing of information during control of complex
biochemical processes of reproduction and development, and most recently in my
discussions of metamorphosis, involving very complex chemical decomposition and
recombination processes -- arguably more sophisticated than anything prodced by
human engineers, all happening in very small spaces with small temperature
changes and using small amounts of energy.
No human designed assembly mechanisms that I know of come close to matching
those features.
I am grateful for pointers to relevant published work (preferably freely
available online) that sould be referenced in the metamorphosis.html document
The name of the document is misleading though I think any other short name would
also be misleading. In a sense, the name of the document is partly justified by
the non-biological metamorphosis constantly occurring in the document as I
work on it!
More from Gordana:
(Replying to Joe Brenner)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">More about natural computing:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_computing__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqR5mljTs$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_computing__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqR5mljTs$</a>
A basic book: G.Rozenberg, T.Back, J.Kok, Ed., Handbook of Natural Computing,
Springer Verlag, 2012
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/referencework/10.1007/978-3-540-92910-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqDvbUgn8$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/referencework/10.1007/978-3-540-92910-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznqDvbUgn8$</a>
The question if The Tao can be *completely* captured computationally is
outside the scope of this discussion.
A photograph cannot completely represent every aspect of its object but is still
representative enough for a human observer.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Our current ideas about computation now seem to me to form a subset of a larger
collection of ideas about forms of control using huge amounts of information
produced over millions of years, also using surprisingly little energy and very
small but very complex forms of matter.
I hope my departure from the Fis format has not caused any problems.
Aaron
Aaron Sloman,
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/*axs__;fg!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznq2Et8dy0$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/*axs__;fg!!D9dNQwwGXtA!W9gRYRrieeHk1y3RNgVHAZrWsk0M_Zii_NwPkNwh0nzzleU7DIlpri6-rcD9Ad6rWw9XM6QSmhjuiznq2Et8dy0$</a>
Emeritus Professor of Artificial Intelligence and Cognitive Science
(Retired, but still working full time, on the Meta-Morphogenesis project,
while brain slides downhill)
School of Computer Science,
The University of Birmingham
Edgbaston
Birmingham B15 2TT UK
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sz9k6j7JHhMVgybBFi4etlOhbem_CJ0GJkad9DQk9AYpXAMUz1JV1JejP7G9fdruy95hEOJpFyIzSQ-F7pK5GF4$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
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