<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Dear Alex and Lou,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Thank you for your responses to my provoking question. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">It is good to also have your views on these future aspects.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">I fully agree with both of you.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">What I bitterly realize is that possibly all the industrial research I have done in the 1990s and early 2000 in the area of wireless communications and distributed intelligent networks, incl. my dissertation and patents might have been used to support oppressive, invasive and harming technologies and regimes. That's why I am very careful about what I do today.  It always starts as a brilliant humanitarian idea, e.g. like prosthetics for disabled and disadvantaged people as in the first MIT article I sent the link to or this review here: </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/article/prosthetics-through-the-ages__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SvvLpPjHypMVgxUVQ5S9A_IM2pzb2MdpmZaSv5rtGU7muHRgDQkyAOt11uQQaZ59oVXPC7F-5eol-YUT889ONCOWItVP$">https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/article/prosthetics-through-the-ages</a>.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">And then it strangely develops against its initial purpose in a weird evolution through the 2. article (link) and 3. link with the video lecture from Davos. Why? Why did the Western, particularly NSF/US and ESF/EU/UK, research and funding become more and more dehumanized over time? And now we truly face the replacement of our human made civilization by something alien. Is this natural? <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">I was afraid I was about to get "Oppenheimer syndrome", but I stopped this research early enough. Lucky me!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Anyway, I wished to share these concerns with you all and appeal for thinking and acting with these motives of precaution in mind.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">There is a way to stop the destruction of civilizations, I am sure. But we need to be more insightful and united.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Lou, your last paragraph gives me the hope that we can deal with these challenges. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">I only wonder if we, with the systems and tools we develop, are not in a Petri dish of some creature(s) outside who curiously observe our evolution.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">I remain positive...</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">With all my good wishes to all of you for a wonderful spring time and a new hope!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Plamen</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 9:30 AM Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Plamen,<div>You are looking at the possibilities of computers and AI. This is evolutionary technology.</div><div>Computers indeed are an evolutionary edge of formal systems.</div><div>The other side of the coin, or the middle of the coin, is how we and our biology actually behave outside of </div><div>formal systems. There is a life outside of these mechanisms and it is from this form of life, feeling, thought that </div><div>the various systems that we know were and sometimes are created.</div><div>This becomes very important as the interfaces (that you look at in these articles) become more intimate.</div><div><br></div><div>We are not formal systems or even animated formal systems. It is because we are not that, that we can create them and participate in their</div><div>evolution. Of course I only say this last as my opinion, not as a universal truth.</div><div>Best,</div><div>Lou</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 7, 2024, at 3:34 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><br><div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Well said. Thank you, Catlos.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">I have one last question:</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">What do you and the FIS colleagues think of this kind of outlook for evolutionary formali(n)sation?</div><div style="color:rgb(7,55,99)"><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div style="color:rgb(7,55,99)"><p style="margin:0px 0px 8.1px;line-height:normal"><font face="arial, sans-serif">1.</font></p><p style="margin:0px 0px 8.1px;line-height:normal"><font face="arial, sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://news.mit.edu/2019/training-artificial-intelligence-brain-scan-0619__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SsU3-gNIFwLZgKiiAaKmhhb1-cQGJaorxvmbNO3QLa-ar2RGlYGvCeFuJBLc7vMzwA0hIWAxk5GeRtvH74S8ZtvCj4Rp$" target="_blank">https://news.mit.edu/2019/training-artificial-intelligence-brain-scan-0619</a></font></p><p style="margin:0px 0px 8.1px;line-height:normal"><font face="arial, sans-serif">2.</font></p><p style="margin:0px 0px 8.1px;line-height:normal"><font face="arial, sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/01/1072471/brain-scans-can-translate-a-persons-thoughts-into-words/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SsU3-gNIFwLZgKiiAaKmhhb1-cQGJaorxvmbNO3QLa-ar2RGlYGvCeFuJBLc7vMzwA0hIWAxk5GeRtvH74S8ZtEGJZZW$" target="_blank">https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/01/1072471/brain-scans-can-translate-a-persons-thoughts-into-words/</a></font></p><p style="margin:0px 0px 8.1px;line-height:normal"><font face="arial, sans-serif">3.</font></p><p style="margin:0px 0px 8.1px;line-height:normal"><font face="arial, sans-serif"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.weforum.org/videos/davos-am23-ready-for-brain-transparency-english/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SsU3-gNIFwLZgKiiAaKmhhb1-cQGJaorxvmbNO3QLa-ar2RGlYGvCeFuJBLc7vMzwA0hIWAxk5GeRtvH74S8ZtSFL0yp$" target="_blank">http://www.weforum.org/videos/davos-am23-ready-for-brain-transparency-english/</a></font></p><p style="margin:0px 0px 8.1px;line-height:normal"><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></p></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">All the best!</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Plamen</div><br></div></div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:06 PM Carlos Gershenson <<a href="mailto:cgershen@gmail.com" target="_blank">cgershen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Dear Pedro and colleagues,<div><br></div><div>Thank you very much for the lively discussions and commentaries. I have learned a lot.</div><div><br></div><div>I would not say these are concluding comments, as all questions remain open, but perhaps "summarizing comments".</div><div><br></div><div>I think that efforts to “fix” formal systems to go beyond or around their limits (<i>à la</i><span> </span>Hilbert’s program) are doomed to fail. We still need to accept them or find a better way of dealing with them. Perhaps an alternative would be not to see them as something negative, but as something we can exploit/benefit from. I mean, just hypothetically imagine if mathematics was consistent, complete, and decidable. Yes, we would have absolute truths, we could have certainty. But would we have creativity? Innovation? Serendipity? In other words, we could eliminate many problems we suffer from, but perhaps we would have many more. Even worse, perhaps we would not even be here. For how could human culture evolve in a consistent, complete, and decidable world?</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, this does not mean that we should abandon science or formal methods. But by acknowledging their limits, we should be able to use different narratives to explore beyond them.</div><div><br></div><div>Best (albeit incomplete) wishes,</div><div><br><div><div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Carlos</div></span></div></div></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Fis mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>----------<br>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br><br>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>----------<br></blockquote></div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">Fis mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style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art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">----------</span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div>