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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In the exchange below between Joseph
and Lou, there is a comment: <i>"I repeat, concepts come along
with percepts. Every percept you have is accompanied by concepts
and by the possibility of new concepts that can inform it" </i>by
Lou, that seems very adequate to reiterate by point on the
underpinning of logics. First, concepts would be accompanied by a
"shadow" of perceptions as well as by another germane shadow of
"actions". The way our cerebellum contributes to organize the
coherence between associated percepts & acts for our efficient
stay in the world, is automatically translated to our assemblages
of concepts and their sensori-motor associated shadows in
language. "True" is when an efficient closure can be achieved,
versus "False" when the associated sensory-motor constellations do
not match properly. This is the realm of natural logics, as
expostulated long ago by Aristotle. When this natural logics
cross-fertilizes with our counting capability and with the
invention of more and more abstract operations are added (with
their subtle load of percepts/movements increasingly abstract as
well), we land on the territories described by Karl and Lou.
However, the extent to which the whole concepts, operators,
algorithms, formal logics, etc. may approach nature's depths would
have intrinsic and extrinsic limits. The intrinsic ones can be
expanded via new abstract inventions... just to find new limits.
This has been put very well by Lou and Carlos. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">As for the extrinsic limits, Cosmology,
the quantum and consciousness, as well as the "logics of life",
represent perennial challenges. The "quantum consciousness", as
discussed by Stuart conflating both realms, has been rarely
discussed in this list (many years ago by von Baeyer and some
isolated messages from Khrennikov). Indeed it would be quite
timely to retake the theme one of these months. Cosmology too...
as we now could count with Carlo Rovelli's possible contribution.
Anyhow, excuse for the digression, going then to the classic book
"La Logique du vivant" by Francois Jacob, we would not find a
trace of the inner logics residing in the biological system (just
dealing with history and his personal contributions to the
mol.bio. revolution). What is the equivalent to the "well formed
sentence" of syntax and the "true sentence" of natural logics? I
was checking a series of fundamental points of biological
information by J. Shapiro (2011)--quite unsatisfying, only going
along the computer & informatic metaphor. In my own attempt to
establish a parallel with the above comments on the cerebellum and
our natural logics, addressed now to the "well formed" episodes of
the cellular, and of the developmental, I confess the absence of
sufficiently sound --information!-- principles... So, in my
unfinished discussion with Joe Brenner on the biological sides of
his LIR, Logic in Reality, I would like to concur with David Noble
quite recent comment in Nature <i>"<b>sitting in uncertainty</b>,
while working to make those discoveries, will be biology's great
task for the twenty-first century"</i> (vol. 626, 8 February
2024, pp. 254-5).</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">PS. I am putting in cc. to William
Miller and <span class="research-detail-author">František
Baluška, inviting them, as they probably would respond far more
meaningfully about the<i> logique du vivant</i> theme--see their
recent "</span><span class="research-detail-author">The Sentient
Cell" (2024).</span>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 29/02/2024 a las 10:41,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1577749084.8689.1709199673743@bluewin.ch">
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<font size="3">Dear Louis,</font>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">My entire approach could be summarized as
trying to give meaning to the expressions you just used -
"actual instantiations" and "accompanied by" referring to
concepts and percepts. Some considerations will apply to
questions of chess, but as I believe you imply, it is the
mental processes behind the moves that are of interest rather
than their epistemic outcomes.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Your last phrase, in my opinion, should read
"the probability of new concepts". Except for what are
essentially pathological cases (all too frequent,
unfortunately), concepts are dynamic and can change.</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font size="3">The principles of my logic do not apply to
infinite sets, or to any other equivalent mathematical
(abstract) object. They are however modeled by the Axiom of
Choice, and I can repeat my argument if is of interest.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Finally, I would wish that Carlos, in his
commendable restudy of Being, might devote a bit or more of
his energy to Becoming, to see how that, also, would look
today.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Thank you and best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Joseph</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">,
"----Message d'origine----<br>
De : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a><br>
Date : 29/02/2024 - 00:38 (E)<br>
À : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cgershen@gmail.com">cgershen@gmail.com</a><br>
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a><br>
Objet : Re: [Fis] [External] Re: " express matter and
energy in terms of information"<br>
<br>
<div class=""> Dear Carlos,
</div>
When I write P = {n | n is a prime number} and assert the
existence of this set, I am asserting the existence of the
CONCEPT that the set expresses.
<div class=""> I am not asserting the existence in some realm
of all of its members. This is my way to handle the
epistemology of set theory.
</div>
<div class=""> Set theory is a way to handle concepts. The
concept of a prime number is not problematical in relation
to any questions of existence.
</div>
<div class=""> The same is true of the concept 2^{N} = { S | S
is a subset of the natural numbers} and all the other sets
that can be expressed in ZFC.
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> With this understanding it is fun to play with
the fantasy that the primes or the real numbers are
“actually there” somewhere. This is fun and helps in
thinking about them.
</div>
<div class=""> When I prove that a specific knot is knotted it
excites me to realize that I have proved something about the
infinity of instantiations of this knot, only a finite
number of which I shall ever see. They all exist in
potentia.
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> These rhetorical flourishes about potentia,
possibles and adjacent possibles are a similar incitement to
fantasy as we get a feeling about worlds unseen.
</div>
<div class=""> It is fun, but lets remember that just working
with concepts and percepts is the main line.
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Some concepts, maybe most, are tied up with
their realizations. So if I am looking at Chess, I imagine
the existence of all possible chess games.
</div>
<div class=""> "All chess games” is a concept just like “all
primes”. That it happens to be a finite set does not make
it more accessible than the infinity of the primes.
</div>
<div class=""> I can also indulge in the fantasy that I can
“know” about “all chess games” but the only way to know
about it is through a big sliice of experience with actual
games and with
</div>
<div class=""> the hypotheses that people have made about
general principles for the game.
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> The same is true for mathematics. The nice
thing about infinite sets is that one has an open field for
studying examples and finding principles that govern these
examples.
</div>
<div class=""> Concepts are not “just” abstractions. You need
to find out how they work in actual instantiations. I think
the reason mathematics works even though people could argue
about potential versus actual infinity forever, is that
mathematics does not need to worry about existence of
anything except concepts and to hope that the arena of
concepts that it uses is consistent for the logic that is
adopted for dealing with them.
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> And again I repeat, concepts come along with
percepts. Every percept you have is accompanied by concepts
and by the possibility of new concepts that can inform it.
</div>
<div class=""> Best,
</div>
<div class=""> Lou
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""> On Feb 28, 2024, at 10:43 AM, Carlos
Gershenson < <a style="cursor:pointer;
text-decoration:underline; color:blue"
onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:cgershen@gmail.com');"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">cgershen@gmail.com</a>>
wrote: </div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;line-break:
after-white-space;" class="">
<div class=""> About latent/Platonic information: </div>
<div class=""> I think we can agree that there are
(infinite) primes that have never been written
down. Do they exist? I think so, in a particular
way. Perhaps, as it was mentioned, the difference
can lie between information that has been
observed, and that which has not. Like the tree
falling in a forest with nobody there to listen
(observe), I guess we can assume that
ontologically the tree fell, even if
epistemologically no observer can say anything
about that. (I elaborate on this distinction
between “absolute being” and “relative being”
here <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/nlin/0109001__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UTF2fg6sqvtQgQb_nuxoj5voh6N_Gw_p9V5p01SPx3bPOcoH28OuL7JzSKI1rsIztIhpoxXFZaIVGWmRwZo$"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://arxiv.org/abs/nlin/0109001</a> although
this is from my undergrad years and for sure could
be updated). </div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Gordana: Isn’t ChatGPT an observer? I
mean, LLMs can be said to be trained through
“observation". </div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
Best wishes, <br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;orphans:
auto;text-align: start;text-indent:
0.0px;text-transform: none;white-space:
normal;widows: auto;word-spacing:
0.0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0.0px;word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;orphans:
auto;text-align: start;text-indent:
0.0px;text-transform: none;white-space:
normal;widows: auto;word-spacing:
0.0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0.0px;word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""> <span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:
separate;font-variant-ligatures:
normal;font-variant-position:
normal;font-variant-numeric:
normal;font-variant-alternates:
normal;font-variant-east-asian:
normal;font-weight: normal;line-height:
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0.0px;-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect:
none;">
<div style="word-wrap:
break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;" class=""> Carlos </div>
</span> </div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<br class="">
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</blockquote>
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