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<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On 2024-02-27, 15:42, "Fis on behalf of Levin, Michael" <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of michael.levin@allencenter.tufts.edu <mailto:michael.levin@allencenter.tufts.edu>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">> 'latent information' exists: waiting to be *discovered* … waiting to
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">be *invented* as new views,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">this is a very important and interesting point.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Thanks, Mike and Marcus.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Indeed! We have been discussing the world as ”potential information” (in the sense of Aristotle’s potentiality) several times. In the sense of
Informational structural realism (Floridi), also in exchanges with Joseph.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I have been working on a notion of this (Platonic?) space of potential inventions, ideas,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">etc. as being under “positive pressure” in some sense - it is not
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">observed, but it *wants* to be observed, it's pushing outward.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">In the Aristotelian sense, potentiality is in the world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">In the Platonic sense</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">, the material world that we perceive
with our senses is not the real world but merely a shadow of the real world. The real world,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">for</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> Plato, is a non-physical realm that consists of ideal forms or ideas.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">
I think we can safely say that the Platonic ideal world is in our heads. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">So can we define a notion in which something is not directly observed (yet) but
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">does exert some kind of “influence” in the world before it is directly
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">embodied/perceived? Can Observers be influenced by things they haven’t
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">yet observed (but are putting themselves in a position to be able to
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">observe)? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Yes, in the Platonic sense of ideas in our heads, our ideas exert real-world influence as they guide our behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Is it possible to formalize the idea of a subtle influence
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">from the denizens of the latent space - a kind of causality (akin to
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">that of synchronicity?) which is not normal physical causality but also
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">not nothing? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Currently, I am not aware of such a framework to express the contents of our heads.
<br>
But in principle, why not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">When can you trace a causal chain back to something that <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">*doesn’t* physically exist? do thoughts that haven’t been thought yet
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">contribute to the shape of an agent’s cognitive landscape?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Freud would say, surely.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">is that what cognitive agents are - transducers (bridges) from the latent space to
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">the physical space, which collapse or amplify potentialities from that
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">space into our world?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">They surely are. They are processing actual information on the level of language plus the potential information which can under certain conditions
become actual for an agent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Thank you Marcus and Mike for this important point. By Maturana quote* I wanted to point out the importance of an observer for actual knowledge
of the world that we are sharing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">But there is a potential information both in the world and embodied in cognizing agents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:#0432FF;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">* After the advent of ChatGPT Maturana’s quote is no longer valid.
<br>
There are utterances made by agents which are not observers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">------ Original Message ------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From "Marcus Abundis" <55mrcs@gmail.com <mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To "Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic" <gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Cc "fis" <fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Date 2/27/24, 9:17:09 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject [External] Re: [Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">information"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>A nice synopsis Gordana, thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>I would add (predictably) not ALL information is observed. For example,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>'latent information' exists: waiting to be *discovered* in our many
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>'logical gaps', or waiting to be *invented* as new views, devices, and
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>tools by humanity's very-few skilled individuals. Only when Truly
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>Perfect Knowledge of the cosmos is achieved (if ever possible) can we
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>say all information is observed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">>Marcus<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis%3E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">----------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">INFORMACIN SOBRE PROTECCIN DE DATOS DE CARCTER PERSONAL<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Puede encontrar toda la informacin sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas <https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas%3E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Recuerde que si est suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicacin en el momento en que lo desee.<o:p></o:p></p>
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