<html contenteditable="true"><head><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width"><style type="text/css"> pre.k9mail {white-space: pre-wrap; word-wrap:break-word; font-family: sans-serif; margin-top: 0px}</style></head><body style="word-wrap:break-word;">Dear All,<br>
This message from Pedro, especially the last bit, brings home the problems of trying to use categories of any sort. <br>
The question of whether logics provide a refuge has two answers: standard logics of propositions, even paraconsistent logic do not; a logic of change or physical processes might. There is a relation to be explored here to the notions of non-existence in Eastern logics. The relation to information was captured by Terry Deacon through his notion of incompleteness.<br>
This message is also incomplete, and people looking for complete answers which do not require change in standard notions of everything "from time to space" may be disappointed. Pedro's best bet is therefore one I am looking forward to learning about.<br>
So far, most of the few comments I have received on the above amount to an expression of incomprehension. May I still hope for more?<br>
Best wishes, <br>
Joseph <br>
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<br>
Envoyé avec l’application blue News & E-Mail<br><br>
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<div class="gmail_quote"><br><br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Le 25 février 2024 à 20:24, "Pedro C. Marijuán" <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com> a écrit
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List, <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks, Carlos, for all your
well-crafted responses. Nevertheless, perhaps some of your remarks
on information look to me rather confusing, sort of
omni-comprehensive, but at the same time strictly glued to
language. <i>"And then we can explore “laws of information” that
apply to everything we can express (because if you can express
it, by definition it is information)".</i> Thus, living beings
non-endowed with language, only relate to information if there is
a human observer describing them? And the "invisible hand" of
markets? I don't know, probably that's not what you were implying.
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:C710CFBA-D3CF-4B00-B110-15637120BCB2@gmail.com">
<div>
<div>
<div>The world (ontology) cannot be fully described
(epistemology) anyhow. Our descriptions are always finite,
the world is always infinite (you can always describe more
aspects of it). The question is which limited description
will be more useful for a given purpose. And the topic of
this month is precisely trying to come up with a description
useful for describing living systems. And perhaps this will
be useful also for intelligence and complex systems in
general.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Our scientific descriptions of the many worlds around are sort of a
nightmare (around 6,000 sci. fields--in general they have been
doubling with every passing generation after the industrial
revolution) The first part of your assertion looks to me quite
cogent, but the second part could be written the other way around:
what we see is plenty of approaches from computer sci, AI, complex
systems, etc. that are deployed towards the biological, far more
than from the other direction. As quite often is reminded in this
list, physicalism and computerism have the upper hand--no problem,
we are used to it. The pity is that that way of thinking is aped in
many other fields where it really opaques comprehension...<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:C710CFBA-D3CF-4B00-B110-15637120BCB2@gmail.com">
<div>
<div>
<div>Btw, physics and logics are just other sets of
descriptions, but some confuse them with reality.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I am reminded the "dream" that Eric told days ago--nice piece.
But thinking about it, I was lead to distinguish, connecting with
its message, the <i>logics</i> from the <i>rationality</i>, the
<i>w</i><i>ay of thinking</i>, and the <i>way of life</i>. Think
please for a while in each one independently and in the whole
relationships between them... It is interesting that for
materialists the latter determined the superstructural mental,
while for idealists it was the opposite. The "rational" has been
strongly contested in recent decades (eg, Kahneman and Tversky S1
and S2) particularly in economics. So, in spite of its
multiplicities and controversies, logics still is an acceptable
refuge--or is it? And philosophy(ies)? My own bet is somewhere
else.<br>
</p>
<p>Best--Pedro<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:C710CFBA-D3CF-4B00-B110-15637120BCB2@gmail.com">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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