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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Mariusz & FIS Colleagues,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks for your reply. Please, send me
your paper, it looks quite interesting. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I was thinking on a digital variation
of the info cheese. It reminds what Stuart posted weeks ago about
digitalizing the info of a painting. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Let us imagine a (future) powerful sort
of scanner-mass-spectrogram, so that it could digitalize the
position of all molecules (momenta needed too?) in a portion of
the cheese. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">We would get a hipermatrix of say
50,000 different molecules (assuming most microrganisms are dead
and somehow dissolved/incorporated), most of them situated in
billions or trillions of different positions. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Could the hypermassive data be sent to
a molecular 3-D printer and rematerialize the cheese? Therefore,
would we have completely digitalized the cheese, putting it "in
terms of information"? <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I don't think so, for "interpretive"
reasons not difficult to follow. Partially they would apply to
Stuart's painting case too (although color codes are more tricky
to discuss than the codes needed for heterogeneous molecular
populations).</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And just to close, formal systems share
the enormous advantage of computer's Moore Law, but cannot capture
the "jury rigging" of life --or in my own parlance, the
information games that life cycles orchestrate regarding their
collectively-unending adaptation processes.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 14/02/2024 a las 10:51, Mariusz
Stanowski escribió:<br>
</div>
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<p>Dear Pedro,</p>
<p>I find your elaboration of Krassimir's question very aptly
pointing out the difficulty of getting to the essence of things
and understanding the objects themselves in an increasingly
complex world of human concepts/information. The more of this
information we have to deal with, the more and more difficult it
is for us to distinguish between the more and the less relevant,
being further and further meta-reflections of that object. It is
also increasingly difficult to find common features for all this
information, that is, information that succinctly define the
object. Therefore, I believe that if we want to understand
something we should focus on the fundamental information, i.e.
the set of the smallest number of concepts sufficient to
distinguish/define the object. <br>
This is the principle I tried to follow in the just published
article that defines information and complexity at the
fundamental level.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644*core-collateral-purchase-access__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T32AiE6UmQl-7n70JaaD2Z8MkqW19WQsVpbwk065JHpDk-lBrAiFGUO1bbWk5PVAYYGnnhnXoVC70zzLMwlGJJWPuR6f$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644#core-collateral-purchase-access</a><br>
Information is understood here either as an Aristotelian form or
form of energy (it is worth noting that information is a
generalization of the concept of form-shape to all other
characteristics of objects), or technically (Shannon) as an
element of a collection. Complexity, on the other hand, is here
the equivalent of information compression (in the broadest
sense).<br>
The article was intentionally written in a somewhat provocative
form to draw attention to the misconceptions arising from a lack
of understanding of these key concepts, even among well-known
authorities. An example of this is Shannon's universal
attribution of natural/physical properties to information on the
basis of similarity to thermodynamics where we deal only with
collections of gas particles, while other physical
objects/processes are not collections but complex structures and
systems.<br>
I can send PDF of the paper if you are interested.</p>
<p>Best regards<br>
Mariusz<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 13.02.2024 o 18:52, Pedro C.
Marijuán pisze:<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">This was great from Krassimir:
<div>"Please give at least one example, for instance, to
express the cheese in terms of information."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was reminded of a famous essay I read in the 80s (or
90s) about "what's in a cent?" (or maybe a "penny"?). It was
a one or two pages essay on the enormous web of occurrences
related to a "simple" object such as a penny. I could not
locate it any more --does anyone know about it?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, the cheese. The sheer diversity of cheeses. The
different flavor, fragance, taste, texture, appearance... as
estimated by our senses, are some of these related to "terms
of information"?</div>
<div>And let's go to the milk fermentation by yeasts,
bacteria, fungi... See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RZmBAGuqcc3WPSJ1gwPwe6Rfxa-lmx4SL77c4fRq2SuTNCAAIa_SmSVmJ8ohHfdmp1ED3LhKSC41zIBn9OYQjiPEOgPs$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/</a></div>
<div>What are the molecular transporters, enzymes, signaling
systems involved? What are the main "molecular recognition"
events? Again: are some of these related to "terms of
information"?</div>
<div>And what about the lives of those involved in the "making
of"? And of the patient "donor" animals? And the engineering
and the whole organization of the production process?</div>
<div>And let's go to the marketing, web sales, use of
influencers, social networks, etc. And fundamentally, when
we go to a market all the other stories will disappear and
will get subsumed into a "price" that signals the value of
the product--into a collective information processing that
recalibrates itself at high speed. That famous Adam Smith
"invisible hand".<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Therefore, the initial question taken literally becomes
rather absurd, fundamentalist--it is the same as if we ask
for the "physics" of the cheese or for its "chemistry". But
curiously, in this case the information-related aspects get
an upper hand. The fact is that socially we have to handle a
big, very big system of the sciences, and we are forced to
combine, recombine their specialized disciplinary views etc.
etc. It is in this bigger multidisciplinary context where
the "physicalist" dominance in intelligence &
information studies was discussed by Yixin-Zhong a few
months ago... quite opportune.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
El 12/02/2024 a las 22:38, Krassimir Markov escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKEQgkx-zV3nKKRUU1GMr_LsV8=03QJ74YqSbsP5eEdaW+vc2g@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Dear Carlos,
<div>You wrote "... express matter and energy in terms of
information".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Simple question:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How can it be done?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please give at least one example, for instance, to
express the cheese in terms of information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With respect,</div>
<div>Krassimir</div>
</div>
<br>
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