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<p>Dear Pedro,</p>
<p>I find your elaboration of Krassimir's question very aptly
pointing out the difficulty of getting to the essence of things
and understanding the objects themselves in an increasingly
complex world of human concepts/information. The more of this
information we have to deal with, the more and more difficult it
is for us to distinguish between the more and the less relevant,
being further and further meta-reflections of that object. It is
also increasingly difficult to find common features for all this
information, that is, information that succinctly define the
object. Therefore, I believe that if we want to understand
something we should focus on the fundamental information, i.e. the
set of the smallest number of concepts sufficient to
distinguish/define the object. <br>
This is the principle I tried to follow in the just published
article that defines information and complexity at the fundamental
level.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644*core-collateral-purchase-access__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T32AiE6UmQl-7n70JaaD2Z8MkqW19WQsVpbwk065JHpDk-lBrAiFGUO1bbWk5PVAYYGnnhnXoVC70zzLMwlGJJWPuR6f$">https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644#core-collateral-purchase-access</a><br>
Information is understood here either as an Aristotelian form or
form of energy (it is worth noting that information is a
generalization of the concept of form-shape to all other
characteristics of objects), or technically (Shannon) as an
element of a collection. Complexity, on the other hand, is here
the equivalent of information compression (in the broadest sense).<br>
The article was intentionally written in a somewhat provocative
form to draw attention to the misconceptions arising from a lack
of understanding of these key concepts, even among well-known
authorities. An example of this is Shannon's universal attribution
of natural/physical properties to information on the basis of
similarity to thermodynamics where we deal only with collections
of gas particles, while other physical objects/processes are not
collections but complex structures and systems.<br>
I can send PDF of the paper if you are interested.</p>
<p>Best regards<br>
Mariusz<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 13.02.2024 o 18:52, Pedro C.
Marijuán pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6899f157-9c35-1f94-6d7c-003f79559b16@gmail.com">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">This was great from Krassimir:
<div>"Please give at least one example, for instance, to express
the cheese in terms of information."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was reminded of a famous essay I read in the 80s (or 90s)
about "what's in a cent?" (or maybe a "penny"?). It was a one
or two pages essay on the enormous web of occurrences related
to a "simple" object such as a penny. I could not locate it
any more --does anyone know about it?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, the cheese. The sheer diversity of cheeses. The
different flavor, fragance, taste, texture, appearance... as
estimated by our senses, are some of these related to "terms
of information"?</div>
<div>And let's go to the milk fermentation by yeasts, bacteria,
fungi... See
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RZmBAGuqcc3WPSJ1gwPwe6Rfxa-lmx4SL77c4fRq2SuTNCAAIa_SmSVmJ8ohHfdmp1ED3LhKSC41zIBn9OYQjiPEOgPs$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/</a></div>
<div>What are the molecular transporters, enzymes, signaling
systems involved? What are the main "molecular recognition"
events? Again: are some of these related to "terms of
information"?</div>
<div>And what about the lives of those involved in the "making
of"? And of the patient "donor" animals? And the engineering
and the whole organization of the production process?</div>
<div>And let's go to the marketing, web sales, use of
influencers, social networks, etc. And fundamentally, when we
go to a market all the other stories will disappear and will
get subsumed into a "price" that signals the value of the
product--into a collective information processing that
recalibrates itself at high speed. That famous Adam Smith
"invisible hand".<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Therefore, the initial question taken literally becomes
rather absurd, fundamentalist--it is the same as if we ask for
the "physics" of the cheese or for its "chemistry". But
curiously, in this case the information-related aspects get an
upper hand. The fact is that socially we have to handle a big,
very big system of the sciences, and we are forced to combine,
recombine their specialized disciplinary views etc. etc. It is
in this bigger multidisciplinary context where the
"physicalist" dominance in intelligence & information
studies was discussed by Yixin-Zhong a few months ago... quite
opportune.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
El 12/02/2024 a las 22:38, Krassimir Markov escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKEQgkx-zV3nKKRUU1GMr_LsV8=03QJ74YqSbsP5eEdaW+vc2g@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Dear Carlos,
<div>You wrote "... express matter and energy in terms of
information".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Simple question:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How can it be done?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please give at least one example, for instance, to
express the cheese in terms of information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With respect,</div>
<div>Krassimir</div>
</div>
<br>
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