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<p>Dear All,</p>
<p>In the information page of the list (
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a> ) there
appears this First Rule for posting in the FIS list:<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><u>- FIRST RULE: Maintaining the
academic & scholarly code of conduct; messages not abiding
by it should be ignored.</u></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Some of the comments below "judging" in
perfunctory terms the work of quite a few colleagues would not
match that standard.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Personally I do not mind, but the whole
bunch of personalized comments is not OK, rather superfluous, and
may be irritative for some concerned parties. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Regards --Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">(FIS Coordination)<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 10/02/2024 a las 13:12, Marcus
Abundis escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CACJqm9y_kP6Tp1S_xeuQXM56xBfDhMpLVNYy+qi4=OFwgJpZOw@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Greetings,<br>
<br>
Missing in this study of Limits of Formal Systems<span
class="gmail_default"> (ways of managing diverse abstractions)</span>,
<span class="gmail_default">and </span>even back to Yixin’s
Paradigm Shifts and to Stu’s notes, is the matter of
simple-to-complex material reality. Gordana partly frames<span
class="gmail_default"> the</span> issue as Multi-Level
Analysis (too much like Multidisciplinary approaches?) and
Dynamical approaches (differed from Agent views?)—where it is
easy to agree a need for New Mathematical approaches and more.<br>
<br>
And now we have Krassimir’s (most of which I agree):<br>
< Have you asked yourself the "simple question“: "Why are
there so many theories in mathematics with corresponding systems
of axioms?“ ><br>
—Here, the reason is NOT mathematic or axiomatic, but
Simple-to-Complex Material Reality, where HUMAN-logical gaps
persist. It is our own `impoverished logic’ (a psycho-logical
problem) that leaves us with mathematical issues, having failed
to FIRST correctly view the<span class="gmail_default"> full</span>
problem(s). If we take modeling as a discipline, one must first
find a proper intuitive fit BEFORE proceeding to mathematic
models—the lesson of Einstein's famous thought experiments. <br>
<br>
PRIMALLY AXIOMATIC Simple-to-Complex Material Reality has many
INNATE Material Paradigm Shifts, we imperfectly map via Logical
Paradigm Shifts (re Yixin). Not until we have perfect knowledge
of the cosmos and LEVEL TRANSITIONS, will `all such issues’
dissipate (re Kant’s das Ding an sich. <br>
<br>
To debate which CURRENT mathematic <span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"></span>v<span class="gmail_default">iew</span>
might be a `better tool’ (re Category Theory, etc.) is too much
like `dueling pathologies’,<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"> </span><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"></span>b<span class="gmail_default">lind
to</span> our own <span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"></span>p<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"></span><span class="gmail_default">ersonal</span>
flaws. This all brings the Limits of Formal Systems back to a
central matter of a need for New Mathematical approaches. But to
imagine new approaches we must FIRST confront our own logical
gaps (psych-logical poverty). This dates back even further, long
before Shannon, to Korzybski’s `confused levels of abstraction’.<br>
<br>
So when Krassimir states<br>
< thousands of articles pointing out how one formal system or
another CANNOT be applied to modeling . . . But writing such
articles is pointless.><br>
— It is hard to disagree, except I would start <span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>b<span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span><span
class="gmail_default">y</span> looking BENEATH living matter,
as living matter itself cannot exist in a vacuum, always in a
context <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span><span
class="gmail_default">of</span><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"> </span>eternal adaptations. To ignore
STIPULATED adaption (adaption to what exactly? = context) as a
central aspect of Simple-to-Complex Material Reality<span
class="gmail_default"> AND Life</span> is equally pointless. A
firm grasp of <span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"></span>e<span class="gmail_default">nsuing</span>
Functional Material Levels is thus an ESSENTIAL first step in
confronting Limits of Formal Systems.<br>
<br>
But then, still — Krassimir — when various `axiomatic offerings’
are already known to you and us<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large">,</span> why are we NOT critically
examining those offerings . . . as part of discussing and truly
exploring <span class="gmail_default">the current topic </span>Limits
of Formal Systems. For example,<br>
<br>
— Kun Wu’s view (1991—earliest I can find) of subject object
modeling seems to head in an interesting direction but also
seems excessively complex, and essentially pantheistic.<br>
<br>
— Terry Deacon’s teleo-dynamics (2011) seems deeply flawed with
a purely thermodynamic base that he initially transcribes to
homeodymanics, while entirely ignoring a much broader
established homeostasis roles. Theromdynamics works ONLY as a
bare/incomplete trope.<br>
<br>
— Mark Burgin’s GTI is entirely without semantic/subjective
roles (per his own admission).<br>
<br>
— Stu Kauffman and his engine block coconut crusher/paper weight
`thinking’ . . . well he never answered my posts, so I am unsure
what to make of it. But *I* would be embarrassed by such an
offering, with NO functional depth.<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"> </span><span class="gmail_default">He
also seems to repeat/encourage Terry's thermodynamic error.</span><br>
<br>
— Pedro every so often offers 10 (or so) informatic principles,
but I have never seen a fully developed model. Still, I have
seen enough to know he often insists it `ALL evolves around
Life, and only Life’ (as *many* do in FIS) and seems to forget
Life must continually adapt to `something’.<br>
<br>
— Joe Brenner’s LIR I have also looked at and it seems
hopelessly dualistic and thus cannot account even for Nature’s
creativity, let alone human creativity.<br>
<br>
— Krassimir’s GIT, certainly makes very promising `sounds’, but
I have never seen a fully developed model, despite many
requests.<br>
<br>
— and then there is of course my own S-O modeling/Natural
Informatics offering, which I will not repeat . . . and there
are likely many others I have forgotten about or just never
heard of.<br>
<br>
I hope this somehow helps `get the ball rolling’ in <span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>e<span
class="gmail_default">xploring</span> <span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>f<span
class="gmail_default">urther</span> *firm critical thinking*
around Limits of Formal Systems<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"></span><span class="gmail_default"> .
. . assuming that is the aim of this session(?)</span><br>
<br>
Marcus</div>
<br>
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