<div dir="ltr"><font size="4">Dear Gordana, Marcus and Colleagues,<br>Thanks a lot for your comments on my humble post.<br>I will reply to both of you, but I don't think now is the time to veer off into a GIT discussion. </font><div><font size="4">Let's be consistent and respect Stu and Carlos by continuing the discussion on the points they raise. </font></div><div><font size="4">My post was exactly in this direction.<br><br></font></div><div><font size="4">I'll answer Markus first, because my answer has to be the size of "a book" and can't fit in one comment.<br><br>Dear Markus,<br>There are now two different printed editions of the GIT monograph, but both are bibliographic rarities. </font></div><div><font size="4">We hardly need to go back more than 30 years when they appeared. </font></div><div><font size="4">But there is a summary article from a later time that was intended to give a brief and informal account of the main ideas. </font></div><div><font size="4">Here is a link to it<br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T--mSBwvdh6msFJ6TKGdvxE4pEGhAyILMEm5KxzcI2iq_CZ3b1084zwB4QPprGg0HMw9UI5CNUTwPeKWEM8$">http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf</a><br>Of course, to this day there are some clarifications, but the essence of the theory has not changed.<br><br>Dear Gordana,<br>I use the term "reflection" in its classic philosophical sense. </font></div><div><font size="4">It is perhaps most visually illustrated by Plato in his parable of the cavemen.<br><br></font></div><div><font size="4">Shadows on the wall! - As a popular song says.<br><br></font></div><div><font size="4">I have already noted in this discussion list that for me Plato provided a perfect model of the human brain. </font></div><div><font size="4">All we perceive are "shadows on the wall"!</font></div><div><font size="4"><br>For convenience, I'll recall here the GIT basic definition of "reflection":</font></div><div><font size="4">******</font></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">Entity </font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">In our
examination, we consider the real world as a space of entities. The entities
are built by other entities, connected with relationships. The entities and
relationships between them form the internal structure of the entity they
build. </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">Interaction </font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">Building the
relationship between the entities is a result of the contact among them. During
the contact, one entity impacts on the other entity and vice versa. In some
cases the opposite impact may not exist, but in general, the contact may be
considered as two mutually opposite impacts which occur at the same time. The
set of contacts between entities forms their interaction.</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">Reflection </font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">During the
establishment of the contact, the impact of an entity changes temporarily or
permanently the internal structure and/or functionality of the impacted entity.
In other words, the realization of the relationships between entities changes
temporarily or permanently their internal structure and/or functionality at one
or at few levels. </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">The change
of the structure and/or functionality of the entity, which is due to the impact
of the other entity we denote with the notion “<b>reflection</b>”. </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">The entities
of the world interact continuously. It is possible, after one interaction,
another may be realized. In this case, the changes received by any entity,
during the first interaction, may be reflected by the new entity. This means
that the secondary (transitive) reflection exists. One special case is the
external transitive self-reflection where the entity reflects itself as a
secondary reflection during any external interaction. Some entities have an
opportunity of internal self-reflection. The internal self-reflection is
possible only for very high levels of organization of the entities, i.e., for
entities with very large and complicated structures. </font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">******</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4"><br></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font size="4" style=""><font face="verdana, sans-serif">I asked ChatGPT to "understand" what I was saying. Here is the answer:</font><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4">******</font></p><div style="border:1pt solid rgb(227,227,227);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">1.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Entity:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""></span></font></p>
</div><div style="border:1pt solid rgb(227,227,227);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin-left:18pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">The real world is viewed as a space of entities.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Entities are constructed by other entities and are
interconnected through relationships.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">The internal structure of an entity is formed by the
entities and relationships that build it.</span></font></p>
</div><div style="border:1pt solid rgb(227,227,227);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">2.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Interaction:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""></span></font></p>
</div><div style="border:1pt solid rgb(227,227,227);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin-left:18pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Relationships between entities result from contact
between them.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Contact involves mutual impacts; one entity influences
the other, and vice versa.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Contacts collectively form the interaction between
entities.</span></font></p>
</div><div style="border:1pt solid rgb(227,227,227);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">3.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Reflection:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""></span></font></p>
</div><div style="border:1pt solid rgb(227,227,227);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;margin-left:18pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">When entities interact, the impact of one entity
temporarily or permanently changes the internal structure and/or functionality
of the impacted entity.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">This change is termed "reflection."</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Entities continuously interact, and the changes from
one interaction may be reflected in subsequent interactions.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 18pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Symbol">·<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif"">Special cases include transitive reflection (changes
from one interaction reflected in a new entity) and external transitive
self-reflection (entity reflects itself during external interaction). Some
entities may also have internal self-reflection, limited to highly organized
entities.</span></font></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif"">
</p><div style="border:1pt solid rgb(227,227,227);padding:0cm;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:15pt 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;border:none;padding:0cm;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI","sans-serif""><font size="4">In summary, this definition explores the
dynamics of entities in the real world, emphasizing their interconnectedness
through relationships, the impacts of interactions, and the resulting
reflections that alter the internal structure and functionality of entities.
The concept of reflection extends to transitive reflection, external transitive
self-reflection, and internal self-reflection in specific cases.</font></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4">******</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="4"><br></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Finally, here is the main thesis:</span><br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 5pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><font size="4"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></font></p></div><div><font size="4">There are infinitely many reflections. </font></div><div><font size="4">Some of them are recognized by the subject, others are not. </font></div><div><font size="4"><br></font></div><div><font size="4"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Those recognized by him are information for him, and the rest, not recognized - data.</font><br><br>With respect,<br>Krassimir</font><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На сб, 10.02.2024 г. в 14:13 Marcus Abundis <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>> написа:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Greetings,<br><br>Missing in this study of Limits of Formal Systems<span class="gmail_default"> (ways of managing diverse abstractions)</span>, <span class="gmail_default">and </span>even back to Yixin’s Paradigm Shifts and to Stu’s notes, is the matter of simple-to-complex material reality. Gordana partly frames<span class="gmail_default"> the</span> issue as Multi-Level Analysis (too much like Multidisciplinary approaches?) and Dynamical approaches (differed from Agent views?)—where it is easy to agree a need for New Mathematical approaches and more.<br><br>And now we have Krassimir’s (most of which I agree):<br>< Have you asked yourself the "simple question“: "Why are there so many theories in mathematics with corresponding systems of axioms?“ ><br>—Here, the reason is NOT mathematic or axiomatic, but Simple-to-Complex Material Reality, where HUMAN-logical gaps persist. It is our own `impoverished logic’ (a psycho-logical problem) that leaves us with mathematical issues, having failed to FIRST correctly view the<span class="gmail_default"> full</span> problem(s). If we take modeling as a discipline, one must first find a proper intuitive fit BEFORE proceeding to mathematic models—the lesson of Einstein's famous thought experiments. <br><br>PRIMALLY AXIOMATIC Simple-to-Complex Material Reality has many INNATE Material Paradigm Shifts, we imperfectly map via Logical Paradigm Shifts (re Yixin). Not until we have perfect knowledge of the cosmos and LEVEL TRANSITIONS, will `all such issues’ dissipate (re Kant’s das Ding an sich. <br><br>To debate which CURRENT mathematic <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>v<span class="gmail_default">iew</span> might be a `better tool’ (re Category Theory, etc.) is too much like `dueling pathologies’,<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> </span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>b<span class="gmail_default">lind to</span> our own <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>p<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span><span class="gmail_default">ersonal</span> flaws. This all brings the Limits of Formal Systems back to a central matter of a need for New Mathematical approaches. But to imagine new approaches we must FIRST confront our own logical gaps (psych-logical poverty). This dates back even further, long before Shannon, to Korzybski’s `confused levels of abstraction’.<br><br>So when Krassimir states<br>< thousands of articles pointing out how one formal system or another CANNOT be applied to modeling . . . But writing such articles is pointless.><br>— It is hard to disagree, except I would start <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>b<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span><span class="gmail_default">y</span> looking BENEATH living matter, as living matter itself cannot exist in a vacuum, always in a context <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span><span class="gmail_default">of</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> </span>eternal adaptations. To ignore STIPULATED adaption (adaption to what exactly? = context) as a central aspect of Simple-to-Complex Material Reality<span class="gmail_default"> AND Life</span> is equally pointless. A firm grasp of <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>e<span class="gmail_default">nsuing</span> Functional Material Levels is thus an ESSENTIAL first step in confronting Limits of Formal Systems.<br><br>But then, still — Krassimir — when various `axiomatic offerings’ are already known to you and us<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">,</span> why are we NOT critically examining those offerings . . . as part of discussing and truly exploring <span class="gmail_default">the current topic </span>Limits of Formal Systems. For example,<br><br>— Kun Wu’s view (1991—earliest I can find) of subject object modeling seems to head in an interesting direction but also seems excessively complex, and essentially pantheistic.<br><br>— Terry Deacon’s teleo-dynamics (2011) seems deeply flawed with a purely thermodynamic base that he initially transcribes to homeodymanics, while entirely ignoring a much broader established homeostasis roles. Theromdynamics works ONLY as a bare/incomplete trope.<br><br>— Mark Burgin’s GTI is entirely without semantic/subjective roles (per his own admission).<br><br>— Stu Kauffman and his engine block coconut crusher/paper weight `thinking’ . . . well he never answered my posts, so I am unsure what to make of it. But *I* would be embarrassed by such an offering, with NO functional depth.<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"> </span><span class="gmail_default">He also seems to repeat/encourage Terry's thermodynamic error.</span><br><br>— Pedro every so often offers 10 (or so) informatic principles, but I have never seen a fully developed model. Still, I have seen enough to know he often insists it `ALL evolves around Life, and only Life’ (as *many* do in FIS) and seems to forget Life must continually adapt to `something’.<br><br>— Joe Brenner’s LIR I have also looked at and it seems hopelessly dualistic and thus cannot account even for Nature’s creativity, let alone human creativity.<br><br>— Krassimir’s GIT, certainly makes very promising `sounds’, but I have never seen a fully developed model, despite many requests.<br><br>— and then there is of course my own S-O modeling/Natural Informatics offering, which I will not repeat . . . and there are likely many others I have forgotten about or just never heard of.<br><br>I hope this somehow helps `get the ball rolling’ in <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>e<span class="gmail_default">xploring</span> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>f<span class="gmail_default">urther</span> *firm critical thinking* around Limits of Formal Systems<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span><span class="gmail_default"> . . . assuming that is the aim of this session(?)</span><br><br>Marcus</div>
</blockquote></div>