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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks a lot for the learned exchanges.
Herewith I am responding to some few previous ones.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">First, to Howard, who takes the
information metaphor inside the subatomic world and, seemingly,
"reifies" it. As a style resource it may be fine, but in
scientific discourse it does not fit well. As an opposite case,
the "founded fathers" of molecular biology (physicists many of
them--Crick, Gamow, Delbruck...) enshrined the info/communicating
metaphor for all the new phenomena discovered: codes,
transcription, translation, signals, messengers... No one put any
question, maybe because it was making a robust inner sense.
Deepening into that is what we try here.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Stuart has to be thanked for his
detailed responses. He has both expanded (& synthesized) the
topics of his recent publications. Nevertheless, my own emphasis
is that this kind of ideas are very suitable to argument on them,
but even more to build upon them, and to try to advance in new
directions. As a reminder I am going to rebuild some my own "ten
principles of information science" which I posted years ago. I was
also discussing the idea of "principles" in science (in a paper
that appeared in Chinese, with Bilin and Wukun). Principles become
amazing thought economizers, convergence makers, trail openers...
don't' we need them herein?? There are wonderful citations from
Whitehead about that (and of course, from Ortega y Gasset, my
favorite). Anyhow, here there are those selected ten: <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">1. Information is
<i>distinction on </i><i><span
style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">the adjacent </span></i>(the
DOTA hypothesis, as John Holgate dubbed it).
<span style="color:red"></span></span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;color:red" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">2. Information processes
consist in organized action upon distinctions collected onto
space-time patterns, sequences, </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">structures,
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">messages, or flows.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">3. Information
flows become essential organizers of life's self-production
processes – anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the
accompanying energy
flows. </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><i>The life
cycle main outcome.</i><br>
</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">4. Proto-phenomena
of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence)
emerge via the signaling
system and the genetic system of the living cell—fully
developed later on in multicellulars via the
action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">5. Information/communication
exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity
of biological
organization at all scales.</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">6. It is symbolic
language what conveys the essential communication exchanges of
human
individuals—and constitutes the core of their "social nature."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">7. Human
information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by
following the
"knowledge instinct", further disciplined and delimited by
applying rigorous
methodologies.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">8. Human cognitive
limitations are partially overcome via </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">specialized disciplines, to be
caught in </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">"knowledge ecologies", where
knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a continuous
actualization that
involves "creative destruction" of theories, practices, and
disciplines.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">9. Narratives
become encapsulated information forms of “natural
intelligence”, tailored to capture our collective
attention and memory, and essential for the cohesion of
social, political, and
economic structures.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:
14.0pt;mso-line-height-rule:exactly;tab-stops:382.75pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif" lang="EN-US">10. Information
science proposes a new, radical vision on how information and
knowledge surround
individual lives, with profound consequences for
scientific-philosophical
practice and for social governance.</span></p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And concerning Plamen (with Marcus,
both may be partially responded with some of the above points), I
would argue that in the convergence / divergence play we all make
with the lens of the thematic focus, he has taken the latter. It
would quite useful for a next planned discussion session, chaired
by Arran Gare, on general problems of science and science
education (approx.). About Free Will and Consciousness, I would
say they appear gradually along the evolutionary complexification
of nervous systems. I remember Gerald Edelman saying that in
invertebrates at the level of lobsters there already appears a
proto-consciousness (maybe to tease his hedonistic lobster-eater
colleagues?), not to speak in Octopus (already cited in this list,
and a great mention in Steele et al. paper sent by Plamen--by the
way, have a glance on "geometric constraints on human brain
evolution", Nature 15 June, 2023, p.566--on resonant activity
modes just derived from brain's geometry). Finally I quite concur
with Marcus... "So I am unsure what to do with Aristotle’s four
causes in current exchanges."</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best --Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> El 24/01/2024 a las 13:10, Stuart
Kauffman escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4ECF82A3-1162-46CD-8CF6-933BB8F9CB72@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Hi Marcus and All. Marcus thank you. Consider: Deduction,
Induction, and Abduction - John Stuart Mill and human rationality.
Great!!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now consider this: If I am using an engine block as a paper
weight, I cannot deduce that I can also use the engine block’s
sharp rigid corners to crack open coconuts. More generally we
cannot deduce the different uses of any single thing alone or
surely with indefinitely many other things. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So I am being a good scientist, even a Bayesian. I have now
used 1,429 engine blocks as paper weights and used a Bayesian
approach to improve the engine blocks to be better paper
weights. I have even used AI to construct a Markov Blanket!
…Cool. <i>My mind evolved to predict the world for survival
purposes. Thank whatever gods. </i> I have make an induction
with a universal quantifier: “All Engine blocks within some
constraints can be used as paper weights!” Then, given this <i>covering
law</i>, I find an engine block and deduce: Because all engine
blocks given these constraints can be used as paper weights, and
this engine block fits the constraints, therefore I can use this
engine block as a paper weight. All true. Thank Darwin and some
neurobiologists, philosophers, and cognitive theorists that my
mind evolved to predict, Bayesian and all!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But with all that, I have <i>no “logical or algorithmic” way
whatsoever</i> to get to, “Hot damn! I can use this engine
block and its rigid corners to crack open coconuts.! “ Uhoh,
evolving life is about open thermodynamic systems that reproduce
so must eat, thus must find, stumble upon, grok, intuit ever -
novel affordances. Were we only Bayesians we would be dead.
Evolution is not limited to Bayesian. The evolving biosphere
invents novel morphologies all the time.Evolution invents novel
behaviors all the time. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is also correct for us humans with MIND. We invent all
the time. Mind is not limited to algorithmic. General AI seems
ruled out. The evolving biosphere is a propagating non deducible<i>
construction,</i> not a computation. Why do we continue to
think that everything that becomes complex is some computation,
even one that must be run to see what it produces? No. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andrea and I argue that we are trapped in our categories,
hence in most of our deductive mathematics. There is no logical
procedure to discover, stumble upon, find out the invention.
Einstein did not deduce SR or GR. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The evolving world is not trapped in its algorithms. Andrea
and I published, The World Is Not a Theorem”. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wittgenstein realized all this nearly a century ago From
Russell Whitehead and his Tractatus to his Investigations and
non reducible language games.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Marcus, I do think we may find statistical laws of the
process. For example, I sent all of us the Stu Andre recent
paper, “Is the emergence of life….” In that we mention the TAP
process. That simple mathematical recurrence relation predicts
the power law descent distribution of 3,000,000 patents. So TAP
is capturing something about human non-deductive invention.
These is a statistics of ‘jury rigging”, somehow related to
constraints and what they next enable. What is next enabled is
the unprestatable non - deducible Adjacent Possible. Here we do
not know the sample space so have no <i>probability </i>measure.
We cannot even define <i>random. </i>Yet TAP seems to work for
descent distributions. <i>ODD, how can both of these claims be
true, if they are?</i></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Stu<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 24, 2024, at 2:29 AM, Marcus Abundis
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com"><55mrcs@gmail.com></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>Pedro and Stuart,<br>
<br>
Thank you for the usefully provocative posts.<br>
<br>
Pedro's 22 Jan post points to THE central matter in
a Third Transition and Phase Transitions<span
class="gmail_default">, no</span>?<br>
< Not aspiring to any universality about the
conceptions of this independent informational
exploration of life--at least shouldn't it be
attempted?? . . . So, an unexpected[?!] convergence
might be found finally ><br>
— If I understand Pedro correctly: creation of new
adjacent possibilities surely follows `some type of
logic'! Why is THAT not discussed here? But I am
also unsure why this should be `unexpected’
(Pedro?). Still, is it really NOT <span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>P<span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">OSSIBLE</span>
to formally deduce `base elements of creativity'?
Does one simply claim it is a `mystery’ (a failure
of scientific imagination), to throw our hands up
and walk away?<br>
— I am unsure if this is what Stuart (and others?)
suggest. If, as Stuart says, it is `not deductive
reasoning’, it surely is not inductive reasoning
(nor analogic reasoning). So EXACTLY what type of
reasoning is needed?!<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"> </span>Intuitively I
think `abductive reasoning’, but then that does not
seem to fully `fill the bill’. Alternatively,
perhaps a blended vista is needed. Further to
Pedro’s note about Plamen, Joe, and Eric, I too have
offered my own Theory of Meaning view on the matter,
much earlier.<br>
<br>
ERIC < . . . at a given point in time we have
real possibilities and we have pseudo possibilities
. . . I did develop a theory of changing sets to
make possible the formalization of changing
possibilities. ><br>
— I am unsure how one effectively differs between
real and pseudo possibilities, as mostly everything
is possible until `the hand is dealt’ (a wave
function collapse?).<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"> </span>Still, a theory of
changing sets sounds interesting (link?:<span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><</span>
my theory of information and ability of agents<span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">
></span>)<br>
Also, < in writing by the time you get to the end
of the sentence you already have a better
understanding of what you are thinking. ><br>
— <span class="gmail_default"
style="font-size:large"></span>In writing it down
again, this time on a computer . . . you should have
EVEN BETTER clarity of your intent and language, no?
This would be useful. Still, my own QM view is
skeptical, I am uninterested in <span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"></span>t<span
class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">hings</span>
prior to a wave function collapse as all is too much
like `noise’.<br>
<br>
JOE < information is characterized by its quality
as well as by scalar quantities. I have not seen any
algorithmic theory that captures quality, but would
of course be glad to know of one. ><br>
— How does Signal Entropy’s variable X^n logarithmic
base NOT present a scalar (simple-to-complex) role?<br>
<br>
STUART — when someone mentions Aristotle’s four
causes I am too often left with more questions than
answers. Foremost, it requires a Prime Mover — which
we are to call `What?’ exactly, thermodynamics?!
Also I do not see how it gets us to
simple-to-complex material reality, it does not even
rise to the level of dialectic logic born of
Pre-Socratic views. Lastly, it seems awfully
anthropocentric, given what we know of
cause-and-effect in this modern era. So I am unsure
what to do with Aristotle’s four causes in current
exchanges.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Marcus</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
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