<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Eric, can you please send me one or two of your papers? <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Stu<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 22, 2024, at 5:21 AM, Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
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<div><p><i><font size="+1">This message was retained by the server due to
the many other cc addresses included. I had already warned
about that... Please, ease my administration work. --Pedro</font></i><br>
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<td>Re: [Fis] it from bit</td>
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<td>Sun, 21 Jan 2024 16:43:59 +0100</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">De: </th>
<td>eric werner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a></td>
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<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a>,
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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"><p>Dear All,</p><p>Getting to a non QM view of information, say like playing a
game of cards ( von Neumann again Game Theory and Economic
Behavior), at a given point in time we have <b>real </b>possibilities
and we have <b>pseudo </b>possibilities due to the ignorance
of a players view of the game. <br>
</p><p>Information in the game context is highly dynamic with
possibilities changing in time. By the way Stu I did develop a
theory of changing sets to make possible the formalization of
changing possibilities. Mathematics can be quite flexible if
you give it a twist. <br>
</p><p>Information gain can reduce pseudo possibilities, not sure at
the moment if it can reduce real possibilities. One thing for
sure is that information gain can increase what a player can do
while the pseudo possibilities are reduced (see my theory of
information and ability of agents). Information in a game acts
much like a quantum <b>operator </b>on a space of
possibilities. In fact, I was inspired by QM to formalize
communication theory between agents using operators on
information states of those agents. The main difference with QM
is that the possibilities seem not to be epistemic (based on
ignorance). QM forces us out of the traditional box of how
information is or can be formalized. <br>
</p><p><b>Hypothesis</b>: One could, perhaps view the quantum particle
as an agent, that interferes with its own representation of its
possibility space (e.g. the double slit). This might be the <b>foundation
of yet another interpretation of quantum mechanics.</b> </p><p>As for it from bit, John Curran (Oxford doctorate in physical
chemistry) and I discussed for many months while we were both
lecturing in Africa. The basic question was: What is matter? He
brought the expertise in physics while I was the
logician-philosopher. We made some progress. Also discussed the
nature and function of the Brain and consciousness with another
lecturer Tom Tobias a neurologist. </p><p>QM is one of the many desperate attempt by so many to
understand consciousness, but in spite of all attempts it is
still a mystery. Whenever, we don't understand something we jump
into the latest mysterious physics (QM or Dark Matter or Black
Holes) to magically give us understanding, even though we don't
truly understand the nature mysterious science we are applying.
It is wrapping a mystery in a blanket [ Markov ;-) ] and
forgetting about it. <br>
</p><p> I have written extensively on the foundations of information
and possibility spaces, but unfortunately they are all in
handwritten form in bound journals. (old school) I find that in
writing by the time you get to the end of the sentence you
already have a better understanding of what you are thinking.
Typing is a bit too fast. <br>
</p><p>One strong link with Stu of some of my previous work is work
on higher order states of uncertainty. Fascinating and may also
have implications to QM. <br>
</p><p>Enough of my Sunday Sermon for the Church or Temple of
Information Studies. <br>
</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/21/2024 3:04 PM, Stuart Kauffman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:231B8BC7-EE8F-4464-AA03-E7A37004F244@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
Alex assuming time “flows” is a major assumption.. And how do we
get from flowing time in QM to time as a dimension in GR? Stu<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 20, 2024, at 9:52 PM, Alex Hankey <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><alexhankey@gmail.com></a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new
roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">RE: (One
of) the mysteries of Quantum Mechanics: Which way
information; null measurements; no facts of the matter
between measurements (hence It from Bit);
non-locality; why when one entangled variable is
actualized the amplitudes of all the rest alter
instantaneously. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new
roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">ME: Why do
you consider 'Time, t' an objectively real variable? <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new
roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">It's
'objectivity' is an unacknowledged assumption
throughout physics, but </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new
roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">no one has
ever bothered to think through any of the good
alternatives, </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new
roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">and publish
on the question. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new
roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394">Alex <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new
roman,serif;font-size:large;color:#0b5394"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 at
23:54, Stuart Kauffman <<a href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Thanks Eric. The ontological reality of Potentia
is critical. This interpretation by Heisenberg
answers at least 5 or perhaps 6 of the mysteries of
Quantum Mechanics: Which way information; null
measurements; no facts of the matter between
measurements (hence It from Bit); non-locality; why
when one entangled variable is actualized the
amplitudes of all the rest alter instantaneously.
And maybe the Delayed Choice experiment.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If Res potentia and Res extensa is correct, it
really does not inherit the Mind Body problem and
it really does invite the hypothesis that Mind
actualizes potentia. This fits the recent results
that almost rule out a physical cause of collapse
of the wave function. A physical cause cannot
convert a possible to an actual. And, as noted,
Radin and others have experimental data using the
two slit experiment that we can alter the outcome,
data at 6.49 sigma. So: we all know that, “I
choose between possiblities that are my options
now, having decided I act. Thus I convert one of
the Possibles in front of me into an Actual.”
Should we ignore this subjective data because it
is not intersubjective? Given Radin’s data, why
reject “I decide and act”, with responsible Free
Will? Such a Responsible Will is ruled out in
classical physics, and also QM if collapse of the
wave function really is Random. But if Mind can
influence the outcome, per Radin et al,
responsible free will is not ruled out. So let’s
get more data on this.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another odd thought. Suppose we turn the
responsible free will issue on its head? I have
responsible free will. If rocks do not have
responsible free will, why not? The question
provokes the start of at least a confused
wondering: A quartz crystal is a very simple
system. My brain is made up of cells with
thousands of different proteins, RNA, lipids, DNA.
Both are simultaneously partly classical and
partly quantum (decoherence is not complete). The
quantum aspects of my brain must be more complex
than that of a crystal. Do those facts matter? I
find myself wondering: Do I have responsibility
free will, but a crystal has a <i>highly shackled</i>
free will? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And if the above is correct, what is
Information?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Stu<br id="m_615223634523548103lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 20, 2024, at 9:07 AM, Eric Werner
<<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="auto">And yet possibilities are
real. Perhaps more so than the actual
<div>Eric <br>
<div><br id="m_615223634523548103lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature">
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Jan 20,
2024, at 15:54, Stuart Kauffman
<<a href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Carlos and Lou.
Hm. Res potentia and Res extensa
is not a <i>substance</i> dualism
because potentia are not
substances. It is still a dualism
I guess of "Possibles some of
which become Actuals". In what
sense do you think the same laws
apply to both, QM vs Classical
Physics. In one sense Yes: both
live in the Newtonian Paradigm,
and it is of real interest that
there is the "Unreasonable
Effectiveness of Mathematics”
here. Hm, Lou too, does that
suggest that if the set of
Possibilities are bounded and not
open, mathematics can work in
definable ways that it cannot work
if the The Possible is open and
growing and cannot be deduced?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Stu
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 20, 2024, at
3:55 AM, Carlos
Gershenson <<a href="mailto:cgershen@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cgershen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>Hi Stu,<br id="m_615223634523548103lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">II.</span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
<div style="margin:0in;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Among
the
interpretations
of Quantum
Mechanics,
consider that
of Heisenberg,
1958. The
quantum state
is a “<b>potentia </b>hovering
ghost-like
between an
idea and
reality”<b>. Potentia</b> are
neither true
nor false.
From this,
Ruth Kastner,
Mike Epperson
and I have
taken, “Res
potentia,
ontologically
real
Possibles, and
Res extensia,
ontologically
real
Actuals. Res
potentia and
Res Extensia
does not
inherit the
Mind Body
Problem. This
interpretation
of QM is not
Cartesian
substance
dualism
because
potenta are
not
substances. It
is not neutral
monism, which
lacks
potentia. It
is not
materialism
which lacks
potentia, and
it is not
Idealism,
which lacks
Res Extensa.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Just a comment on
this: Wouldn’t res
extensia be a
type/subset of res
potentia? In this
sense, you avoid the
dualism: both are
information, only
one possible (and
infinite) and
another actual (and
finite), but the
same laws should
apply to both.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Best wishes,<br>
<div>
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">
<div style="overflow-wrap:
break-word;">Carlos</div>
</span></div>
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