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-------- Mensaje reenviado --------
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Asunto:
</th>
<td>Re: Information, computation, and causality in living
systems: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 108, Issue 5 - Kierkegaard,
responsible free will and the meaning of the new
transition in science</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Fecha: </th>
<td>Wed, 17 Jan 2024 14:37:15 +0100</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">De: </th>
<td>Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com"><plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com></a></td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Para: </th>
<td>Louis Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"><loukau@gmail.com></a></td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
<td>Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se"><gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se></a>, Stuart Kauffman
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"><stukauffman@gmail.com></a>, Andrea Roli
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andrea.roli@unibo.it"><andrea.roli@unibo.it></a>, Pedro C. Marijuán
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"><pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com></a>, Eric Werner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"><joe.brenner@bluewin.ch></a>, Krassimir Markov
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com"><itheaiss@gmail.com></a></td>
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<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Dear
FISers, Stu, Lou, Alex, Paul and All,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">This is my
second post on one day and for the whole week, I am afraid,
but I think it is worth saying it in conclusion of my previous
comment, because a chance let me come to these "emergent
thoughts" as this often happens in life with the "law of
attraction" when reading another source.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif"
color="#073763"><br>
</font></div>
<div class="gmail_default">
<p style="line-height:26px;margin:0px 0px 20px"><font
face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763">I came upon Edgar
Allan Poe’s short story “The System of Dr. Tarr and Prof.
Fether” and </font><span
style="color:rgb(7,55,99);font-family:arial,sans-serif">the
advice of the head of a mental health hospital there</span><span
style="color:rgb(7,55,99);font-family:arial,sans-serif">:</span></p>
<p style="line-height:26px;margin:0px 0px 20px"><font
face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763"><span
style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">"<i>You are young
yet, my friend,” replied my host, “but the time will
arrive when you will learn to judge for </i></span><i>yourself
of what<span style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"> is
going on in the world, without trusting to the gossip
of others.</span><span
class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"
style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"> </span></i><strong
style="caret-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><i>Believe nothing
you hear, and only one half that you see.</i>”</strong></font></p>
<p style="line-height:26px;margin:0px 0px 20px"><font
face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763">Thus I come back
to Lou's and my earlier argument about the (constructed)
illusion which all science is for us per definition. Aley
will understand this easier. :-), but</font></p>
<p style="line-height:26px;margin:0px 0px 20px"><font
face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763">I believe that
most of you will object to this stance of extreme
scepticism in Poe's short story, while saying that if you
don't believe anything you hear, you might as well just
give up trying to understand anything about what is going
on in this world. I understand this frustration, but on
the other hand I think that this is<span
class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span><strong>a
very good starting point to revisit and revise many
common scientific concepts we got used to very easily
and apply by default now. </strong>What did people like
Einstein and Tesla 100+ years ago and Elons Musk is trying
to remind us about? You don't really need DNA
engineering, AI and quantum computers to step back (or
aside) and look at the picture as an observer (from first,
second or third person perspective, or maybe all together
superposed!), to "feel" it (better), do you? Arran is
going to open another exciting discussion quite soon.</font></p>
<p style="line-height:26px;margin:0px 0px 20px"><font
face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763">Have a great week
ahead!</font></p>
<p style="line-height:26px;margin:0px 0px 20px"><font
face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763">Plamen :-)</font></p>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at
1:41 PM Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a
href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Nicely
said, Lou (bold face emphasis from me below).</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at
5:41 AM Louis Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">This is in response to
Stu and the notion that deduction is not all (I agree)
and that it is impossible (I disagree).
<div>We use deduction to see the results of
constraints that persist over time. If these
constraints change too much then we cannot reason
from them.</div>
<div>But in many cases we know that certain
constraints are in place and with that we can deduce
many other facts. This is how mathematics and
modeling using mathematics works.</div>
<div><b>There is some given set of assumptions and
what can be deduced from them is valid just so
long as these assumptions hold. </b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When we are in situations where everything is up
for grabs then no deduction is possible. Most actual
situations are somewhere in between purely formal
results from rules and the pure chaos. I agree with
Stuart that it is futile to try to deduce
everything. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">And
that's why work needs to be done.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>The question always is, can one deduce a key fact
that will forward the action? See the works of </div>
<div>Conan Doyle for many examples.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">If
you are smart or lucky or both enough.....</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>On the mathematical side, we have structures that
everyone agrees to. And in that realm it is just as
certain as 2 + 2 = 4 that there are infinitely many
prime numbers and that the number of prime numbers
less than or equal to n is asymptotic to n/log(n)
and that no consistent formal system can capture all
the truths of number theory. We reasoned ourselves
right out of the formal box because we have the
ability to reason (as evolved organisms). And
luckily Stu agrees that this evolution is not part
of some formal system.</div>
<div>Or so it seems.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">When
reading Penrose's book "The Road Reality" long time ago,
I recall he had a drawing inside that he took from his
former book about consciousness "The Emperor's New
Mind". It represented a triple mapping of the Platonic
spheres representing the different realities we are
exposed to. Here a nice new image of them: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scientificgems.wordpress.com/2013/05/18/three-worlds/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q_LXD3FaN87lhUDrWnDolG5NEoU-HzYT2h8X8Amb6NNMk9iuWdhmEd8RG_lJWjIz48yhx2RNVQZq_T2eNgUiNwavYx7F$" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://scientificgems.wordpress.com/2013/05/18/three-worlds/</a>.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">That
brought me to an extension of Robert Rosen’s concept of
the relations between science and life (itself) which I
published in a 2010 article about the post-Newtonian
paradigm. So I am asking myself, and you all of course::
isn’t this paradox that Stu and Rolli put before our
eyes a clash between the Aristotelian and Platonic view
at Nature? What other mapping could be there? One of the
AI mind perhaps?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Prime
numbers, complex numbers, and many more mathematical
object-tools are mind constructs, abstractions of
physical entities, but they also have their not so ideal
image reflections in the world which our senses decode,
and which David Mumford and his colleagues have so
beautifully (and metaphorically) described their book
“Indra’s Pearls”. So, don’t we need to really try
expanding our consciousness, as Alex said, in order to
perceive and understand more shared reality?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Everyone has to reason this out for
themselves. </b>We can be convinced by at least
powerful rhetoric that we are not machines
(activated formal systems) </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Well,
I am not quite sure about this last thing, while taking
on Bruno’s stance who gets really back 2000 years ago to
Plotinus. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>and we can see that indeed it could be that this
convincing is a kind of illusion. </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">And
this is what Alex and other followers of the Hindu
philosophy tradition is trying to tell us.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">You
can also deduce this, of course. I don’t recall who has
compared this process to looking through a Kaleidoskope.
Maybe Mumford himself.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><b>I suggest that individuals can each come to
their own conclusions</b>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Plamen</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jan 13, 2024, at 10:42 AM, Gordana
Dodig-Crnkovic <<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Stu,
thank you for the answer, and sorry that
I cannot reply in the list.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">I
want to comment on your claim below that
life is “</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif">not a
computation at all</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">”.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">It
depends on how you define computation.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">In your reply to Krassimir,
and on several other occasions, you
pointed out the limitations of
computation that you define as
necessarily algorithmic (in the sense of
algorithm = Turing Machine). I can agree
given the “computing = TM” assumption.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">However, in the Theory of
computing people have already developed
computational models beyond the TM, in
the form of Unconventional computing,
and Natural computing (physical
computing).<span> </span></span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">Within IAIS we have two
leading names, Andy Adamatzky and Susan
Stepney who could help us to present and
discuss recent developments, explaining
how those new kinds of computation can
be used to describe life. Their research
is about future computing, not the
machines we are using.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">But yesterday I found a
short (2-page) article<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">“I</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif">nformation,
computation, and causality in living
systems</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">”
(in the attachment),<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">by</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><span> </span>complexity
researcher</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><span> </span>Carlos
Gershenson, affiliated with the Santa Fe
Institute,</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><span> </span>and
focused on the
informational-computational view of
complexity.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">He describes the
limitations of our present-day
understanding of life. Questioning the
adequacy of our knowledge, he quotes
Kauffman and Roli “The world is not a
theorem” from Entropy 2021<b>.</b></span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">At the same time,
Gershenson</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><span> </span>proposes
using computational simulations on<span> </span><b>existing
computers</b><span> </span>in
combination with experiments to learn
about living systems. He refers to
algorithmic theories of life and the
success of</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">AlphaFold
and Evolutionary-scale prediction of
atomic-level protein structure with a
language model.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">I would propose inviting
Carlos to give a presentation so that we
can discuss those topics in depth and
test all our objections and expectations
of models of life explicitly.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">All the best,</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:9pt;font-family:Times"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">Gordana</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span></div>
<div style="border-style:solid none
none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0cm 0cm">
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span
style="font-size:12pt">From:<span> </span></span></b><span
style="font-size:12pt">Stuart Kauffman
<<a
href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date:<span> </span></b>Friday, 12
January 2024 at 01:21<br>
<b>To:<span> </span></b>Gordana
Dodig-Crnkovic <<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>><br>
<b>Cc:<span> </span></b>Louis Kauffman
<<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>>,
fis <<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>,
Andrea Roli <<a
href="mailto:andrea.roli@unibo.it"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">andrea.roli@unibo.it</a>><br>
<b>Subject:<span> </span></b>Re: [Fis]
Fis Digest, Vol 108, Issue 5 -
Kierkegaard, responsible free will and
the meaning of the new transition in
science</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Gordana
I completely agree. Moreover, the Third
Transition claims to demonstrate that
the evolving biosphere is a
non-deducible propagating construction,
not a deduction, not a COMPUTATION at
all. The grounds to think human mind is
a computation are being erased. We do
not create meaning by deducing, we
create it as living organisms acting in
the world. “Meaning” is to ME, acting
and doing in my world, for all living
creatures. </div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Andrea
Roli and I wrote a further paper,
“What is Consciousness?", published in
the Linnean Society recently, 2023 Vol
139. We jury rig. Non - embodied
Universal Turing Machines are
algorithmic and cannot jury rig.
Embodied UTM in robots can jury rig a
bit, but far too slowly, we think. We
suggest mind is quantum, it entangles
with the world, we collapse the
superposition wave function, and we
experience the single state as a
qualia. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">And
Kirkegard was exactly correct as are
you.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Stu</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm
12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On
Jan 11, 2024, at 4:07 PM,
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdu.se</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">On<span> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">9 January 2024
at 18:32</span><span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">(below)
Stuart wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">”(...)
responsible free will?
Glad to argue for this.
Gordana?”</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">"Life
can only be understood
backwards, but it must be
lived forwards"</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Søren
Kierkegaard, Journalen
JJ:167 (1843), Søren
Kierkegaards Skrifter,
Søren Kierkegaard Research
Center, Copenhagen,
1997--, volume 18, page
306.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">L</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">ife cannot be
understood forward</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">s</span><span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">since we cannot
know all possible
consequences of our
present decisions. Despite
this, ethical practice has
found pragmatic solutions.
For example, a popular
ethics topic today is AI,
a technology that is
developing incredibly
quickly. We have no idea
what will come next year.
Yet, people have started
thinking about future
scenarios, challenges,
possible pitfalls, etc.
Societies want to prepare
even under uncertainty. We
do this all the time.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">Ethics is a
distributed intelligent
learning adaptive system.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">The question of
predicting a system's
future behavior also
relates to research. The
paper "A third transition
in science?" relates both<span> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">to<span> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">the methodology
of prediction and the
direction of the new
transition in science, a
post-Newtonian paradigm.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">The current
paradigm shift is
occurring in the material
sciences—physics,
chemistry, biology—as well
as in other forms of
knowledge production and<span> </span><b>meaning
creation</b>.<span> </span></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">At the
foundation of information,<span> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">there
is<span> </span></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">the concept of
'meaning'.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">This meaning is tightly
bound to values, but that
is a subject for a new
discussion.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"" lang="EN-US">Gordana</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Book"" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0cm
0cm;border-color:currentcolor">
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span
style="font-size:12pt">From:<span> </span></span></b><span
style="font-size:12pt">Fis
<</span><a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:12pt">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span
style="font-size:12pt">>
on behalf of Stuart
Kauffman <</span><a
href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:12pt">stukauffman@gmail.com</span></a><span
style="font-size:12pt">><br>
<b>Date:<span> </span></b>Tuesday,
9 January 2024 at 18:32<br>
<b>To:<span> </span></b>Louis
Kauffman <</span><a
href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:12pt">loukau@gmail.com</span></a><span
style="font-size:12pt">>,
0 <</span><a
href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:12pt">stukauffman@gmail.com</span></a><span
style="font-size:12pt">><br>
<b>Cc:<span> </span></b>fis
<</span><a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:12pt">fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><span
style="font-size:12pt">>,
Andrea Roli <</span><a
href="mailto:andrea.roli@unibo.it"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:12pt">andrea.roli@unibo.it</span></a><span
style="font-size:12pt">><br>
<b>Subject:<span> </span></b>Re:
[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol
108, Issue 5</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Lou
how splendid! I fully
agree and perhaps even
more. Wheeler’s wonderful
20 questions is, as you
say, OUR joint<span> </span><i>conscious<span> </span></i>construction
of what will become. What
becomes did not yet exist.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
clearest physical
example is exactly the
evolving biosphere.
Whatever the Actual
biosphere is now, it
enables an
un-prestatable Adjacent
Possible into which it
literally physically
constructs itself. What
is Actual now must be
stable enough to enable
what can next arise. The
same thing occurs in the
evolving global economy.
Goods and services that
now exist enable the
coming into existence of
new, non-prestatable,
non-deducible
complements and
substitutes, screws and
screwdrivers - screws
and nails.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We
do not know what is “in”
the Adjacent Possible of
the biosphere. We do not
know the sample space of
the process, so can have
no probability measure
nor even define
“random”.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It
is critical to our
discussions to get
beyond formal
deductions. Evolving
life is an evolving
physical, in part,
construction.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Beyond
the way the biosphere
physically constructs
itself without appeal to
MIND and consciousness,
we also are conscious,
choose and act. Ask any
Venture Capitalists and
entrepreneurs. They
cannot deduce - compute
“The risk”.</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As
Soren Kirkegord roughly
said, We live our lives
forward into mystery.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Uhoh,
responsible free will?
Glad to argue for this.
Gordana?</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Stu</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On
Jan 8, 2024, at
8:38 AM, Louis
Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear
Stu,</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
constituents
of your
Kantian wholes
still obey the
laws of
physics. I am
made of atoms
and
molecules. </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In
studying
mathematics
the structures
obey the
axioms I have
chosen to
study, but
they are not
so constrained
by them that
they do not
have
surprising
behaviour.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
prime numbers
obey the Peano
axioms but
that does not
make them
staid and
predictable,
quite the
contrary.
Novelty arises
in relation to
constraints.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Look
at the
molecular
biology. We
are pretty
damn sure the
the molecules
in the cell
obey physical
law all the
way down to
quantum
mechanics. And
those
molecules have
evolved into
the dance of
life. How
those
evolutions
occurred is
your fantastic
study AND all
that occurred
as far as we
can tell with
no violation
of physical
law.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
see that every
even number
not equal to 2
is the sum of
two odd primes
(in many
ways!) I also
see that
whenever this
happens it
happens within
the rules of
arithmetic.
The rules of
arithmetic do
not deny this
phenomenon,
but it may
well be that
they neither
predict it or
make it
possible for
it to be
deduced from
them. That is
the way things
are.
Constraints
are part and
parcel of
creativity.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ah,
but you ask
Why can
Physics have
constraining
laws? Ha! </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Note
that in the
Feynman Path
Integral
version of QM
the “particle”
does whatever
it likes.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
laws arise
from the phase
relationships
of the
particles that
arrive at a
given “place”
in conjunction
with assumed
properties of
“observers”. </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Wheeler
in his book on
Gravity
(Misner,
Thorne and
Wheeler)
speaks
eloquently
about “Law
without Law”.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
suggest you
read John
Wheeler who,
in my opinion
has the best
answer to this
question in
terms of his </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Parable
of the Game of
Twenty
Questions. </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
can send you
my paper
related to
that but it
will be too
long for this
email. </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Excerpt
included
below.</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">86.
Here is a
remarkable
story told by
the physicist
John Archibald
Wheeler about
a Game of
Twenty
Questions
(Davies, P.C.W
and Brown, J.
R. (1986)): “
Then my turn
came .... I
was locked out
an
unbelievably
long time. On
finally being
readmitted, I
found a smile
on everyone’s
face, a sign
of a joke or a
plot. I
nevertheless
started my
attempt to
find the word.
‘Is it an
animal?’ ‘No.’
Is it a
mineral?’
‘Yes.’ ‘Is it
green?’ ‘No.’
‘Is it white?’
‘Yes.’ These
answers came
quickly. Then
the questions
took longer in
the answering.
All I wanted
from my
friends was a
simple ‘yes’
or ‘no’. Yet
the one
queried would
think and
think before
responding.
Finally I felt
I was getting
hot on the
trail, that
the word might
be<span> </span><i>cloud</i>.
I knew I was
allowed only
one chance at
the final
word. I
ventured it:
‘Is it<span> </span><i>cloud</i>?’
‘Yes,’ came
the reply, and
everyone in
the room burst
out laughing.
They explained
to me that
there had been
no word in the
room. They had
agreed not to
agree on a
word. Each one
questioned
could answer
as he pleased
– with one
requirement
that he should
have a word in
mind
compatible
with his own
response and
all that had
gone before.
Otherwise, if
I challenged,
he lost.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">This
surprise
version of
Twenty
Questions was
therefore as
difficult for
my colleagues
as it was for
me ... What is
the symbolism
of the story?
The world, we
once believed,
exists<span> </span><i>out
there<span> </span></i>independent
of any act of
observation.
... I,
entering the
room, thought
the room
contained a
definite word.
In actuality,
the word was
developed step
by step
through the
questions I
raised ... Had
I asked
different
questions or
the same
questions in a
different
order I would
have ended up
with a
different word
... However,
the power I
had in
bringing the
particular
word<span> </span><i>cloud<span> </span></i>into
being was
partial only.
A major part
of the
selection lay
in the ‘yes’
or ‘no’
replies of the
colleagues
around the
room ... In
the game, no
word is a word
until that
word is
promoted to
reality by the
choice of
questions
asked and
answers
given.”
Wheeler’s
allegorical
fable was
intended to
illuminate the
conditions of
the quantum
physicist. In
quantum
physics no
phenomenon is
an actual
phenomenon
until it is
observed and
agreed upon by
all the
physics
colleagues.
The story just
as well
illustrates
the world of
social
interaction.</span><span
style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">87.
My thesis is
that all
attempts to
find stable
knowledge of
the world are
attempts to
find theories
accompanied by
eigenforms in
the actual
reflexivity of
the world into
which one is
thrown. The
world itself
is affected by
the actions of
its
participants
at all levels.
One finds out
about the
nature of the
world by
acting upon
it. The
distinctions
one makes
change and
create the
world. The
world makes
those
possibilities
for
distinctions
available in
terms of our
actions. Given
this point of
view, one can
ask, as one
should of a
theory,
whether there
is empirical
evidence for
this idea that
stable
knowledge is
equivalent to
the production
of eigenforms.
In this case
we have only
to look at
what we do and
see that
whenever
“something is
the case” then
there is an
orchestration
of actions
that leaves
the something
invariant,
making that
something into
an eigenform
for those
actions. The
eigenform
thesis is not
itself a
matter of
empirical
science. It is
a matter of
definition,
albeit
circular
definition.
Another point
of view is
that the
empirical
evidence is
all around
you. Examine
any thing. How
does it come
to be for you?
Investigate
the question
and you will
find that
thing is
maintained by
actions. The
action could
be as simple
as opening
your eyes and
looking at the
cloudy sky.
With that
action, the
cloudy sky
comes to be
for you. I do
not assert
that this is
the usual
scientific
explanation of
cloudy sky.
But if you
want to work
with such
things then it
is usually
even more
transparent.
The sharp
spectral lines
of Helium are
the result of
setting up a
very
particular
experiment
that produces
them. The
experiment,
its equipment,
the scientists
and all that
is needed to
perform it is
the
transformation
whose
eigenform is
the spectrum
of Helium.<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">88.
It is a
fruitful
beginning to
look at
present
scientific
endeavors and
to see how
they are
interrelated
and find
connections
among them, to
engage in
meta-scientific
activity. This
can reveal how
theories,
seemingly
objective,
actually
affect the
world through
their very
being, and how
these actions
on the world
come to affect
the theories
themselves. In
exploring the
world, we find
regularities.
It is possible
that these
regularities
are our own
footprint. In
the end we
shall begin to
understand the
mystery of the
eigenforms
that we have
created,
constructed
and found.</span><span
style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">(LK
in
Constructivist
Foundations,
Vol. 11, No.
3)</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">This
is of course
related to
Wheeler’s “It
from Bit”.
Each question
gives a bit of
information.
The whole
pattern of
questioning
gives the
resulting
world of
“everything
that is the
case”. The
striking thing
in the parable
is the lack of
causality, and
the
philosophical
question: How
much comes
just from our
demand for
consistency?
And you will
note to what
great lengths
we go as
(mathematical)
scientists to
preserve
consistency
even in the
face of
acausality.</span><span
style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Best,</span><span
style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Lou</div>
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style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times
New
Roman",serif"> </span></p>
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<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On
Jan 7, 2024,
at 7:27 AM,
Stuart
Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank
you Lou. I
agree.
Creativity is
not deduction.
Given what you
write, Andrea
and I claim to
have shown
that no laws
at all entail
of the
evolution of
the biosphere
which is a
non-deducible,
propagating,
construction.
Assume this is
correct. But
physics DOES
HAVE LAWS THAT
ENTAIL. So if
Andrea and Stu
are right and
physics with
laws is right,
why can
physics have
entailing laws
but not the
evolving
biosphere. One
answer is that
living
organisms
really are
Kantian Wholes
with Catalytic
and Constraint
closure, that
can evolve new
boundary
conditions
creating novel
phase spaces,
that can
evolve and
create
ever-new phase
spaces by<span> </span><i>selection
on the whole,
which is
downward
causation</i><span> </span>for
those feature
that survive
and propagate
best in the
current
context - and
there is no
prior
description of
what the
current
context will
become. </div>
</div>
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<p
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</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">But
even if Andrea
and I are
right about
evolving life,
why can
PHYSICS have
entailing
laws?</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
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<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">All
very odd.</div>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Stu</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span
id="m_6695739565668760569m_827496282872573653cid:9A156325FF0C394E86040BAC3ACC541C@SWEP280.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM"><Information,
computation, and causality in living
systems-Carlos Gershenson.pdf></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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