<font size="3">Dear Eric, Stu and Lou,</font><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">In this note especially, as well as in Stu's of Jan 6 at 3:49 and Lou's of Jan 7 at 10:01, questions of principle and laws in science are raised that I feel are evolving in parallel with their application to information as such. In this process, Stu states a bit apodictically that logic comes last.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">But what logic? I submit that the properties of such a logic are hinted at in the last paragraph of Stu's note "...this becoming is NOT AI, which is algorithmic." </font></div><div><br></div><div><font size="3">Eric says in this note that what is needed is a broader form of logic, which goes beyond the limitations of standard, propositional, truth-functional logic.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">Those of you who have been following Pedro's initiative may recall that I have referred on several occasions to a non-standard logic of processes, grounded in the existence in physics of their parts which instantiate movement from actuality to potentiality and <i>vice versa. </i>I have tried to show that information, better informing follows the same rules. Obviously, in a pendulum, the movement from actual to potential energy; the potentials involved in an oxidation-reduction reaction; and passivation-activation processes in nerve cells are at different "levels". But they are all pictures of change, and their logic is a logic of change in physical, ontological reality.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">This logic (I claim), captures the information content in a painting in its aspect of its capacity to move us, something "not there", as Terrence would say, but nevertheless potentially, causally efficient.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">In my view, Eric's last sentence could be emended as follows: "In (those) definite phase spaces it is not so much the <i>possibilities</i> which are no longer set but the <i>probabilities </i>, and we remain accordingly in a universe in which "information and intention" are integratable if not (yet) integrated.</font></div><div><font size="3">Some, many physicists may have emulated Procrustes, but physics_as_change has not, not as I have tried to describe it.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">The "essay" form which Pedro npw suggests is not yet a familiar one for me. Should I promise a longer note? To anticipate briefly, I would try to show how the lemmic logic of Nagarjuna and Yamauchi set out a set of principles which, far from being "just" philosophy, have embedded in them the realities of both existence and thought.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">I would look forward to comments and above all criticisms.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">Best wishes,</font></div><div><font size="3">Joseph</font></div><div><font size="3"> </font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font><blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">----Message d'origine----Nagr<br>De : eric.werner@oarf.org<br>Date : 10/01/2024 - 09:59 (E)<br>À : loukau@gmail.com, stukauffman@gmail.com<br>Cc : pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com, fis@listas.unizar.es, gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se, itheaiss@gmail.com<br>Objet : Re: [Fis] With or without math?<br><br><p>Dear Stu and All you wonderful intelligent beings,</p>
<p>It is amazing how consistently, accurately and even stubbornly embryos of a species develop into their unique unambiguous form. This reminds one if not of equations but of formal mathematical systems that may be applied to understand this complex process. The advantage of abstraction is that it permits us to understand the somewhat indefinite. <br></p>
<p>Deduction also used in exchange for reasoning, a much broader form of logic. In that sense life may indeed be very logical. Let me be a bit more provocative: We are the artists use mathematical methods to describe and understand, while life uses deduction directly to infer the morphology of the embryo from the information in the genome. </p>
<p>To reduce life to thermodynamic work really confuses levels of information and ontology, as physicists are tempted to do when over applying an area to where it not longer fits. The Procrustean bed of physics may cut off the very limbs or spark of life that gives it its unique qualities. <br></p>
<p>That is not to say that physics is irrelevant and I am snuggling up to spiritualists or any other religion. Rather it needs to be integrated into the Kantian whole that Stu correctly emphasizes. <br></p>
<p>We need to integrate information, physics, intentions, cooperative generative capacities of multiple agents via communicative organizations as wholes. I am getting at viewing embryos as multi agent communicating systems, as a form of social being. <br></p>
<p>Add to that indefinite phase spaces where possibilities are no longer set, well... <br></p>
<p>That's bit of work ahead of us!</p>
<p>-Eric </p>
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On 1/9/24 9:00 PM, Louis Kauffman wrote:
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I never said Nature engages in deduction, except in her variously distributed minds.
(Put this to next week if necessary.)
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Jan 9, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Stuart Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com');"><stukauffman@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Thanks Lou and Krassimir. And/But….
Living systems are not formal deductions. Living systems do thermodynamic work to construct themselves as physical entities. The evolving biosphere really is a non-deducible propagating construction, not an entailed deduction. Mere formal deduction constructs nothing physical, que no? Living cells are not merely passive cognizes. As open non-equilibrium chemical reaction systems they must eat or die.
BES
Stu
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Jan 9, 2024, at 9:50 AM, Louis Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:loukau@gmail.com');"><loukau@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Dear Krassimir,
Yes. With!
But if ‘It from Bit” means a participatory universe as with Wheeler, then we need to have
FormalMath+Cognizers
to understand and work with it.
In fact Mathematics as a Way of Thinking
is indeed Formality+Cognition.
Best,
Lou
P.S. I have a slideshow related to this theme. I will send it to Krassimir. If anyone else would like to see it, just write privately to me at
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:loukau@gmail.com');">loukau@gmail.com</a>
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<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VKJdUKgPqgjOe0KxcXR_ZJZEf0FNApiP2pDaN25OncXktbzct_qOBtbi8_dYmdSbVCXihx8tmxyM4NeZX0cpvJs$">https://oarf.org</a><br><br><br></i>
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