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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks, Marcus!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I will do more reading and answer in the coming days.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">One important thing: five points are Stuarts, not mine!
</span></b><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Sorry for not making it clear.<b><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I changed the formatting and made a list, but the five points are Stuart's, from:<b><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">[1] Kauffman, S., Clayton, P. On emergence, agency, and organization. Biol Philos 21, 501–521 (2006).
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s10539-005-9003-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rg3c69Y8KRVdTd87uGEnNrmoIiH-ZANNiLaH-Faqh8MsU4Obfr45ZxS2G1IKXFiBGIFZ47CtfnGVZGJEAnnEKgXBjr8uDaq9$">https://doi.org/10.1007/s10539-005-9003-9</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Mine is the observation that information plays a fundamental role in the background.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">I was trying to say that (2) corresponds to „no information without physical implementation“<b>*</b>,
<br>
and (1, 3, 4, 5) describe the dynamics of a physical system that implements information processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="HR" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">*</span></b><span lang="HR" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> From:
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Floridi, Luciano, "Semantic Conceptions of Information",
<em><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2021 Edition)</span></em>, Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL =
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/win2021/entries/information-semantic/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rg3c69Y8KRVdTd87uGEnNrmoIiH-ZANNiLaH-Faqh8MsU4Obfr45ZxS2G1IKXFiBGIFZ47CtfnGVZGJEAnnEKgXBjj2SJM05$">
https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/win2021/entries/information-semantic/</a></span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">
<span lang="EN-US">:<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">”</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Following Landauer and Bennett [1985], and Landauer [1987]; [1991]; [1996], (ON) is often interpreted materialistically, as advocating the impossibility
of physically disembodied information, through the equation “representation = physical implementation”, that is:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">(ON.1) <b>There can be no information without physical implementation</b>.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Marcus Abundis <55mrcs@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 9 January 2024 at 10:05<br>
<b>To: </b>fis <fis@listas.unizar.es>, Gordana CHALMERS <gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Jerry LR Chandler <jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com>, Jorge Navarro <jnavarrol@unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Gordana's Agency Note<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:18.0pt"><br>
Dear Gordana, et al,<br>
<br>
< But then one may ask: what must a physical system be such that it can act on its own behalf? . . . minimal molecular autonomous agent: such a system . . . ><br>
<br>
Indeed!<br>
Interestingly, this ties my 1 January post, just beforee this FIS session – in response to Jerry’s 31 December note, which oddly does not show in the FIS archive (but is now copied below, in addition to Jorge’s note).<br>
<br>
To me, your five points seem to define 'agency’, where the language of your post may suggest something more-reductive (molecular): ’proto-agency’ – is THAT your meaning?!<br>
<br>
Forgive me if I seem to 'twist’ your meaning (not intended) . . . but such proto-agency is what I tried to evoke as most-base 'adaptive logic’ . . . where simple mechanical preservation of base molecular form would initiate adaptive logic. That base molecular/mechanical
self-preserved 'form’ might then serve as *one* constituent in fully realized agency. Following Jorge’s note, my view was more 'engineering’ in nature, as a most-base mechanical Life/agent precursor.
<br>
<br>
Regardless, our interests may be parallel, alongside Stuart and Andrea’s argued-for 'transition in science' . . . where I have raised related points (re function, and selection) in another post. But I see all here as related . . . in targeting a 'New Kind of
Science' (with apologies to S. Wolfram).<br>
<br>
Marcus<br>
<br>
==<br>
Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
Allow me to propose one more facet of life that adds to the central theme of Kantian Wholes: autonomous agency. Living organisms are "agential" materials, as Michael Levin puts it. They possess cognition, have agendas, and act purposefully.<br>
This is how agency is explained by Stu in [1], and similarly in [2]:<br>
<br>
"It is a stunning fact that the universe has given rise to entities that daily modify the universe to suit their own ends. We call this capacity 'agency' — the ability to act on one's own behalf."<br>
<br>
But then one may ask: what must a physical system be such that it can act on its own behalf?<br>
We propose a tentative five-part definition of a minimal molecular autonomous agent: such a system<br>
should be capable of reproduction with heritable variation,<br>
should perform at least one work cycle and have boundaries such that it<br>
can be naturally individuated,<br>
should engage in self-propagating work and constraint construction, and<br>
should be able to choose between at least two alternatives.<br>
<br>
(I reformatted the sentence into the numbered list).<br>
<br>
References:<br>
[1] Kauffman, S., Clayton, P. On emergence, agency, and organization. Biol Philos 21, 501–521 (2006).
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s10539-005-9003-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rg3c69Y8KRVdTd87uGEnNrmoIiH-ZANNiLaH-Faqh8MsU4Obfr45ZxS2G1IKXFiBGIFZ47CtfnGVZGJEAnnEKgXBjr8uDaq9$">https://doi.org/10.1007/s10539-005-9003-9</a><br>
[2] Kauffman, S.A. The origins of order: Self-organization and selection in evolution. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.<br>
<br>
To the above definition of agency of a minimal molecular autonomous agent, I would propose to add information processing which enables learning and adaptation.<br>
<br>
It appears to me that points 1, 3, 4, and 5 above derive from the information processing capacity of these systems.<br>
Goal-directedness, or agency, can be seen as based on information processing, which is enabled by memory and the mechanism of anticipation that is contingent on memory.<br>
<br>
Evolutionarily, all cognitive (agential) mechanisms derive from material characteristics. As an illustration, see a very short account in the video The Biophysics of a Brainless Animal.</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">
</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt">More
extended explanation can be found at:</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">
</span><span style="font-size:18.0pt"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1VAIwcn7z8__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rg3c69Y8KRVdTd87uGEnNrmoIiH-ZANNiLaH-Faqh8MsU4Obfr45ZxS2G1IKXFiBGIFZ47CtfnGVZGJEAnnEKgXBjvxrk4wq$">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1VAIwcn7z8</a> Manu
Prakash: The physics of biology, which addresses several of Stu’s questions.<br>
<br>
Gordana<br>
<br>
==<br>
from Jerry –<br>
<br>
Marcus, List:<br>
<br>
After reading your post, it is unclear what question you are asking. Three questions come to mind.<br>
Is the issue the existence of a dividing line or threshold between the atomic sciences and the life sciences?<br>
Or, is the question about the organization of matter such that intelligence (life) a consequence entailed by structural information?<br>
Or, does the question refer to the cognitive structures of “intelligent objects” ascribed to internal forms?<br>
<br>
Recalling the recent FIS discussions on the virus, TMV, tobacco mosaic virus, a crystalline form of biological organized atoms, I am wondering if that distinction would provide some guidance on the intended meaning of “adaptive logic”.<br>
<br>
Also, it would be informative if one knew what form of logic you are referring to - classical, intuitive, modal, etc which are abstractions without direct reference to scientific terms or natural logics (deployed by Mother Nature to get the job done.)<br>
<br>
I think your questions are most appropriate here, given the history of the discussions grasping for a semantic/syntactical thread to tie the various hypotheses together. (As if the inquiry is seeking some form of “modus operandi” to match or pair with “modus
ponens”. :-). )<br>
<br>
CheersJerryHappy New Year to All!!!<br>
<br>
==<br>
from Jorge–<br>
<br>
Hi Marcus,I am an engineer by training. The “reverse engineering” of both kind of systems would help.Greetings,Jorge <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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