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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Interesting reference made by Terry to
"it from bit". Although quite relevant works have been done in
this direction (Wheeler, Deutsch, Lerner, Dean...), it is not what
I mean regarding the different realms that emerge from life. So to
speak, I leave the "it" for physicists, and the "bit" for
"computerists". The information flows that make coherent wholes
out from the multiplicity of cycles involved in the living, are
not "Shannonian" either. Some parties (also in this list) have
proposed interesting quantum field hypothesis on how to integrate
that meta-trans-multi cyclicity. It is something that deserves
some attention by mathematicians--I dare say.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The new informational vision that could
be connected with the "adjacent possible" has not been built yet.
Presently, there might be sort of a bias in the adjacency temporal
scales considered--evolution, ecology, economics, technology...
But exploring the adjacent possible could also be a concern for
far shorter time spans, for physiology ("cellular signaling
systems"), for neuroscience and ethology (instant behavioral
choices), for psychology and sociology (emotions, social moods,
social discord and collapse, etc.etc.)</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">When during two generations people have
been talking about the gap between natural science and humanities
(Lord Snow), it could also mean the divide between physicalism and
the lack of a coherent sense for the informationally grounded
realms (social domains, arts, culture...).<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">By the way, Stuart, if 40.000 pixels
are enough to capture Picasso's content, would you pay 100 million
bucks for one of those bit packages? You cannot capture in bits
the whole socio-cultural-biographic frames embedded in the
masterpiece. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 07/01/2024 a las 23:42, Gordana
Dodig Crnkovic escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6DEDB65D-8602-4627-95EE-5A9C174CA8F5@chalmers.se">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Dear colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Allow me to propose one
more facet of life that adds to the central theme of Kantian
Wholes:
<b>autonomous agency</b>. Living organisms are "agential"
materials, as Michael Levin puts it. They possess cognition,
have agendas, and act purposefully.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">This is how agency is
explained by Stu in [1], and similarly in [2]:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">"It is a stunning fact
that the universe has given rise to entities that daily
modify the universe to suit their own ends. We call this
capacity 'agency' — the ability to act on one's own behalf."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">But then one may ask:
what must a physical system be such that it can act on its
own behalf?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">We propose a tentative
five-part definition of a minimal molecular autonomous
agent: such a system<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" type="1" start="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">should be capable of reproduction with
heritable variation,<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">should perform at least one work cycle and
have boundaries such that it<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">can be naturally individuated,<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">should engage in self-propagating work and
constraint construction, and<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">should be able to choose between at least two
alternatives.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">(I reformatted the
sentence into the numbered list).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">References:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">[1] Kauffman, S.,
Clayton, P. On emergence, agency, and organization. Biol
Philos 21, 501–521 (2006).
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s10539-005-9003-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WWIS2V8aSgvKYkrQRr725ec79RyfScFLmMNE8IsOuQH_2QEXOgrmSFAoTpy10_NrZIogCIJL_U0gt3mM7rtKVyxvUWJfKGhM$"
target="_new" moz-do-not-send="true">https://doi.org/10.1007/s10539-005-9003-9</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">[2] Kauffman, S.A. The
origins of order: Self-organization and selection in
evolution. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">To the above definition
of agency of a minimal molecular autonomous agent, I would
propose to add
<b>information processing</b> which enables <b>learning</b>
and adaptation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">It appears to me that
points 1, 3, 4, and 5 above derive from the information
processing capacity of these systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Goal-directedness, or
agency, can be seen as based on information processing,
which is enabled by memory and the mechanism of anticipation
that is contingent on memory.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Evolutionarily, all
cognitive (agential) mechanisms derive from material
characteristics.
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif" lang="EN-US">As an illustration, see
a very short account in the video
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImKFUHJdcLE__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WWIS2V8aSgvKYkrQRr725ec79RyfScFLmMNE8IsOuQH_2QEXOgrmSFAoTpy10_NrZIogCIJL_U0gt3mM7rtKVyxvUQM960NL$"
target="_new" moz-do-not-send="true">The Biophysics of a
Brainless Animal</a>.<br>
More extended explanation can be found at:</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"><br>
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1VAIwcn7z8__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WWIS2V8aSgvKYkrQRr725ec79RyfScFLmMNE8IsOuQH_2QEXOgrmSFAoTpy10_NrZIogCIJL_U0gt3mM7rtKVyxvUS9S__8A$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1VAIwcn7z8</a></span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif">
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Light",sans-serif">Manu Prakash: The physics of biology</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">, which addresses several of Stu’s questions.</span><span
style="font-family:"Avenir Light",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir
Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Fis
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> on behalf of Stuart
Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"><stukauffman@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, 7 January 2024 at 16:28<br>
<b>To: </b>Louis Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"><loukau@gmail.com></a>, 0
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"><stukauffman@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>, Andrea Roli
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andrea.roli@unibo.it"><andrea.roli@unibo.it></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 108, Issue 5<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Thank you
Lou. I agree. Creativity is not deduction. Given what
you write, Andrea and I claim to have shown that no laws
at all entail the evolution of the biosphere which is a
non-deducible, propagating, construction. Assume this is
correct. But physics DOES HAVE LAWS THAT ENTAIL. So if
Andrea and Stu are right and physics with laws is right,
why can physics have entailing laws but not the evolving
biosphere</span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">?</span><span
style="color:black"> One answer is that living organisms
really are Kantian Wholes with Catalytic and Constraint
closure, that can evolve new boundary conditions
creating novel phase spaces, that can evolve and create
ever-new phase spaces by
<i>selection on the whole, which is downward causation</i>
for those feature that survive and propagate best in the
current context - and there is no prior description of
what the current context will become.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">But even if
Andrea and I are right about evolving life, why can
PHYSICS have entailing laws?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">All very odd.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Stu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 7, 2024, at 2:00 AM, Louis
Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com"><loukau@gmail.com></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Stu,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Think about physical laws. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Good principles like F = ma,
Newton’s Law of Gravity, and all that. Laws of
E&M, Schrodinger equation, Dirac equation,
Einstein’s modern geometric understanding of
Gravity.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Some questions and thoughts.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. Newton did not deduce the
law of gravity. He guessed it and discovered that
it explained Kepler’s Laws that were derived from
observation. This made Newton’s guess very firm.
There is no way to predict Newton’s Law of
Gravity. In fact it is not even correct when one
takes Einstein’s wider point of view. Einstein
guessed that there should be a differential
geometric law of gravity. He was lucky, the tensor
expression in curvature that he sought was nearly
unique and so in this case the mathematical
constraints helped him find a physical law. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. Once laws are given (or
guessed) then some predictions are possible. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Clerk Maxwell guessed the laws
of EM via Faraday’s experiments and Faraday’s
field concepts. But then <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Maxwell saw that in his theory
the EM field could propagate like a wave and its
velocity was the velocity of light! Who would have
thought it? And this allowed Maxwell to further <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">guess (yes guess but some say
‘predict’) that light is an EM wave. Huge
consequence for the physics and technology after
that up through the present day. But this is being
done by inventive discovery not by logical
deduction. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">3. No one could predict the
structure of atoms or the later understood nuclear
structure in terms of quarks. This is discovered
and verified and there are theories but there is
no theory that predicts atoms. Once we know
something about atoms we can understand how
certain molecules could behave, but no one can
predict the emergence and stability of <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">big molecules like DNA or their
reproductive properties.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">4. Physics is a big guesswork
patchwork that uses mathematics and has some
predictive abilities. But the main lines of its
structure are guessed, discovered, invented,
verified.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The logic comes last.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mathematics is the same. It is
a structural enterprise and we cannot predict
where it will go and what will be proved. We knock
around and invent or discover structures and
sometimes get them into deductive frameworks.
Lots of ‘obvious’ things are not (yet) proved.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Lou<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 6, 2024, at 3:49
PM, Stuart Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">stukauffman@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">HI Pedro and All, <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you Pedro,
perhaps we <i>are </i>at THE GREAT
TRANSFORMATION. We begin to confront the
vast, unprestatable, non-deducible
becoming of the evolving biosphere.
YET…yet, physics works also. We really
can compute planetary orbits. If the
biosphere is “governed by no laws” why
do laws work so well in Physics?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">And there is
something very odd about, “Information”.
Consider the information content of a
Picasso painting. Cast it into 10,000
pixels, each reflecting a wavelength
specified by 4 bits. So 40,000 bits
suffice and that 40,000 bits can be
sent by email all over the world to be
printed out on physically different
systems using different procedures and
perhaps pigments to create a good copy
of the Picasso. It seems information is
not embodied but becomes physical to
print, or to erase a bit in the 40,000
record.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now think of a living
cell, a Kantian Whole with Catalytic and
Constraint Closure. There IS NO SEPARATE
“description” of this reproducing
system. It cannot be copied. The living
cell
<i>constructed</i> itself, it did not
create a description of itself sent to a
distance assembly point.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also in Boltzmann
entropy can stay constant or increase.
In Shannon, in parallel, information can
be transmitted without or with loss.
BUT..there is no creation of new
information. That is due to the
Newtonian Paradigm where the phase space
of all the possibilities are stated
beforehand. (In Shannon, the entropy of
the source.) But in the evolution of the
biosphere, co-evolving organisms are
creating ever-new ways to get to
co-exist for a while. This is the
unprestable and non-deducible creation
of new information. The emerging
evolving increasing complexity of the
biosphere is not via a channel
transmitting information from some
exogenous source. Andrea Roli and I are
working on this. And this becoming is
NOT AI, which is algorithmic. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hm…. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stu<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Jan 5, 2024,
at 2:20 PM, <a
href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">
fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Send
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<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: New Year Lecture -
Stuart Kauffman (Terrence W
Deacon)<br>
2. Re: Fis Digest, Vol 108,
Issue 4 (Krassimir Markov)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 08:47:37
-0800<br>
From: Terrence W Deacon
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu"><deacon@berkeley.edu></a><br>
To: Pedro C. Mariju?n
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"><pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>,
Skauffman
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stukaufman@gmail.com"><stukaufman@gmail.com></a><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] New Year
Lecture - Stuart Kauffman<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CAOJbPRLC40bnKjupETxqd_tDLXziDZdwVTvXHVauFwcdwytxuA@mail.gmail.com"><CAOJbPRLC40bnKjupETxqd_tDLXziDZdwVTvXHVauFwcdwytxuA@mail.gmail.com></a><br>
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<br>
Beware of the cryptic
Cartesianism of opposing
informationalism to<br>
physicalism (as in "it from
bit").<br>
By accepting this framing, we
risk falling for the old
idealism vs<br>
materialism trap, just in a new
form.<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 3:59?AM
Pedro C. Mariju?n
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"><pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com></a><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear
Stuart and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
We are honored that you impart
the FIS New Year Lecture this
time. In this<br>
list, quite a few members
share the impression that we
are involved in a<br>
historical transition in
science. Maybe, as you and
Andrea Roli state, it<br>
could be the Third Great
Transition. That it revolves
around putting into<br>
question the predominance of
physicalist views was
coincidentally discussed<br>
in a previous discussion
session, when two pioneers of
AI research (Yixin<br>
Zhong from China and Eric
Werner from Oxford) were
arguing for a paradigm<br>
change away for physicalism.
Now you are providing strong
arguments from<br>
the biological
self-construction and
evolutionary points of view.
An<br>
important point is the
argument on Kantian wholes,
from the closure of<br>
auto-catalitic sets. It could
also be considered as the
organizational<br>
reliance on "cycles". In
biological systems there is a
towering presence of<br>
cycles: from elementary
reaction cycles, to enzyme
work-cycles, to regional<br>
reaction cycles, gene
expression cycles (your
Boolean networks!!), to<br>
genetic macro-cycles... to the
cell's entire life cycle. And
an even larger<br>
story could be told about
cycles in complex organisms...<br>
<br>
To put the argument in a
nutshell: bye to physicalism
(as a fundamental<br>
meta-scientific vision). Yes,
but what would substitute for
it?<br>
I dare say "informationalism".
You mention the biosphere and
the global<br>
economy, and even our
cultures. Aren't all them
based on the circulation of<br>
"information flows" (in
vastly different forms, of
course)??<br>
Let us think, for instance, on
the enormous disarray created
by the new<br>
social networks in our
societies... we do not much
understand the<br>
psychological changes derived
for the intertwining of
natural vs artifical<br>
info flows in our societies.<br>
<br>
I am just reading Joseph's
just arrived comments,
philosophically and<br>
formally oriented. Fine. I
would ad that we are lacking a
vast<br>
informational view that can
help us to understand that
strange world put<br>
into action 3,000 million
years ago, full of emergent
realms. So, filling<br>
in the gap that physicalim is
unable to fill in
consistently.<br>
<br>
Best regards to all,<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
*PS. If anyone has doubts
about the messages effectively
distributed in<br>
the list, go please to the
instantaneous archive:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/">http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/</a><br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/%3E*">http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/%3E*</a><br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
El 04/01/2024 a las 23:54,
Stuart Kauffman escribi?:<br>
<br>
Hello to All,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am truly grateful to have
this opportunity to discuss
with you the<br>
recent Stuart Kauffman and
Andrea Roli paper, ?A Third
Transition In<br>
Science?? J. Roy. Soc.
Interface, 4/ 14 2023. I
attach a link below. It?s<br>
eventual publication in a fine
journal after almost two years
has its own<br>
wry history.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Andrea and I think we are
correct, but we may be wrong.
More, I only<br>
slightly begin to understand
what our results, if correct,
mean.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I had thought that the First
Transition in science was
Newton?s invention<br>
of Classical Physics in 1689
A.D. And I thought the Second
Transition was<br>
the reluctant discovery of
quantum mechanics between 1900
and 1927 A.D.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I begin to suspect I was
wrong. The First Transition
in science was in<br>
1299A.D. when the first
mechanical clock was invented
and installed at the<br>
Wallingford Abby. It was
installed because the monks
were often late for<br>
prayers. Within less than a
century, Europe was dotted by
chuch towers with<br>
ever - more impressive
mechanical clocks. Modern
people in 1379 A.D. must<br>
have begun to wonder if the
World itself was some amazing
clockwork<br>
machine. Then Copernicus, 1543
A.D., then Kepler, Galileo and
Newton.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This, then, was the Second
Transition in Science. Yes,
yes, yes! The<br>
World is a vast clockwork
machine. No room for God?s
miracles ? the Deistic<br>
God of the Enlightenment. No
room for mind ? Descartes lost
his Res<br>
cogitans to Newton?s Res
extensa. No Free Will.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
With Planck, Heisenberg, and
Schrodinger cam a loss of
determinism, but<br>
still within the Newtonian
Paradigm. And no mind and no
responsible Free<br>
Will.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If Andrea and I are correct,
this Third Transition
demonstrates for the<br>
first time since 1299AD, 725
years later, that the evolving
biosphere is<br>
not a clockwork machines.
Evolving life is not a machine
at all.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Are the two of us correct? If
so, what does this Third
Transition<br>
portend? These issues now
lies before us.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Merci a tous,<br>
<br>
<br>
Stu Kauffman<br>
<br>
<br>
A Third Transition in Science?
Link<br>
<br>
<br>
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