<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Krassimir,<div class="">This is the other Prof Kauffman. I use both category theory and set theory.</div><div class="">The limitations are similar. We can work with patterns and we can deduce some things, but we are not prepared to predict</div><div class="">novelty in many many situations.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou Kauffman</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 5, 2024, at 1:19 PM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com" class="">itheaiss@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Dear Prof. Kauffman and FIS Colleagues,<div class="">Warm Wishes for health and happiness in (and not only!) New Year ! </div><div class=""><br class="">Dear Prof. Kauffman,</div><div class="">Thank you very much for the interesting article and the ideas presented in it. </div><div class="">I fully agree that set theory cannot be used for the purposes you state in the article. </div><div class="">I agree with all your conclusions and opinions ...<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But ...<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Only at the level of set theory!<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Modern mathematics has already proposed theoretical foundations by which to model the complexity and unpredictability you speak of.<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is the Category Theory.<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I do not have the opportunity to go into details here, but I will try to explain the difference in a sentence or two.</div><div class=""><br class="">In set theory, we work with elements and functions from one element to another element.<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In category theory, we work with structures and morphisms (mappings) of structures into structures, and a special place is occupied by functors, which are mappings of categories into categories.</div><div class=""><br class="">I have been using Category Theory for modeling information phenomena for many years and I am satisfied with the results. </div><div class="">Maybe someday we'll have a chance to talk in more detail.<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">With respect,<br class="">Krassimir<br class=""></div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class=""><br class=""><table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tk1UTgfW-nil9p-FpOx_8br863v36zD2frnSNU3nLkVuQ3b4QFYWywpUTtXGpgeiMPnVfFr0lweo0pSd3bs$" target="_blank" class=""><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" class=""></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px" class="">Няма вируси<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tk1UTgfW-nil9p-FpOx_8br863v36zD2frnSNU3nLkVuQ3b4QFYWywpUTtXGpgeiMPnVfFr0lweo0pSd3bs$" target="_blank" style="color:#4453ea" class="">www.avast.com</a></td></tr></tbody></table><a href="x-msg://2/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" class=""></a></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На пт, 5.01.2024 г. в 13:59 <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>> написа:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br class="">
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1. Re: New Year Lecture - Stuart Kauffman (<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>)<br class="">
2. Re: New Year Lecture - Stuart Kauffman (Pedro C. Mariju?n)<br class="">
<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br class="">From: "<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br class="">To: Skauffman <<a href="mailto:stukaufman@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">stukaufman@gmail.com</a>><br class="">Cc: <a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a href="mailto:plamen@simeio.org" target="_blank" class="">plamen@simeio.org</a><br class="">Bcc: <br class="">Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:41:33 +0100 (CET)<br class="">Subject: Re: [Fis] New Year Lecture - Stuart Kauffman<br class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Dear Stuart (if I may), Pedro and Plamen,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Happy New Year and best wishes for 2024 to All! As
Pedro and Plamen may recall, I have been “at home in Stuart’s Universe” for some
time. His article, however, brings clearly into focus the issues to be resolved
in science and philosophy, including logic.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">As you may not recall, however, I have been arguing
for all this time, <i class="">contra vents et marées</i>, in favor of some very
specific additions. Among other things these, have their ground in the very
much neglected Buddhist insights into the relational structure of reality (co-dependence
or co-instantiation) in the work of both Nagarjuna (2<sup class="">nd</sup> - 3<sup class="">rd</sup>
Centuries C.E.) and Yamauchi Tokuryu (19th -20<sup class="">th</sup> Centuries).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">To be as brief as possible here, Stuart’s article
refers to or implies needed changes in the following areas:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p style="margin-left:53.4pt" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Free will as necessary for individual
and collective responsibility;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p style="margin-left:53.4pt" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Total separability in the part-whole relation:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p style="margin-left:53.4pt" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Inapplicability of standard set theory;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p style="margin-left:53.4pt" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Dynamic implications of the Axiom of Choice;
(I have sent my philosophical-logical interpretation of this Axiom to some 45
people without an answer, not that I was
wrong or ignorant – nothing.)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p style="margin-left:53.4pt" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">-<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Non-algorithmic, but regular features
of the real world;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">I look forward very much to a dialogue on these and
other issues,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Cheers, as far as possible,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;line-height:107%" class="">Joseph<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px" class="">----Message d'origine----<br class="">De : <a href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">stukauffman@gmail.com</a><br class="">Date : 04/01/2024 - 23:54 (E)<br class="">À : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">Cc : <a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>, <a href="mailto:plamen@simeio.org" target="_blank" class="">plamen@simeio.org</a><br class="">Objet : [Fis] New Year Lecture - Stuart Kauffman /Pedro and Plamen is this what you need? stu<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="" class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hello to All,
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I am truly grateful to have this opportunity to discuss with you the recent Stuart Kauffman and Andrea Roli paper, “A Third Transition In Science?” J. Roy. Soc. Interface, 4/ 14 2023. I attach a link below. It’s eventual publication in a fine journal after almost two years has its own wry history.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Andrea and I think we are correct, but we may be wrong. More, I only slightly begin to understand what our results, if correct, mean.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I had thought that the First Transition in science was Newton’s invention of Classical Physics in 1689 A.D. And I thought the Second Transition was the reluctant discovery of quantum mechanics between 1900 and 1927 A.D.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I begin to suspect I was wrong. The First Transition in science was in 1299A.D. when the first mechanical clock was invented and installed at the Wallingford Abby. It was installed because the monks were often late for prayers. Within less than a century, Europe was dotted by chuch towers with ever - more impressive mechanical clocks. Modern people in 1379 A.D. must have begun to wonder if the World itself was some amazing clockwork machine. Then Copernicus, 1543 A.D., then Kepler, Galileo and Newton.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">This, then, was the Second Transition in Science. Yes, yes, yes! The World <i class="">is</i> a vast clockwork machine. No room for God’s miracles – the Deistic God of the Enlightenment. No room for mind – Descartes lost his Res cogitans to Newton’s Res extensa. No Free Will.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">With Planck, Heisenberg, and Schrodinger cam a loss of determinism, but still within the Newtonian Paradigm. And no mind and no responsible Free Will.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If Andrea and I are correct, this Third Transition demonstrates for the first time since 1299AD, 725 years later, that the evolving biosphere is not a clockwork machines. Evolving life is not a machine at all.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Are the two of us correct? If so, what does this Third Transition portend? These issues now lies before us.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Merci a tous,
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Stu Kauffman</div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">A Third Transition in Science? Link
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2022.0063__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Qqk-MU8YHDOqCRFRhl7TeX1dkVGTkGVguvuvh9b0bDsQA5fo9VckJgLmoyonQDdvxMbEBRHMUpOBTww1u06J-5k$" style="color:rgb(149,79,114)" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2022.0063</span></a><span class=""><span style="font-size:18pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""> </span></span>
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<u class=""></u>
<u class=""></u></div>
</blockquote><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br class="">From: "Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br class="">To: Skauffman <<a href="mailto:stukaufman@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">stukaufman@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">Cc: <br class="">Bcc: <br class="">Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:59:18 +0100<br class="">Subject: Re: [Fis] New Year Lecture - Stuart Kauffman<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear Stuart and FIS colleagues,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We are honored that you impart the FIS
New Year Lecture this time. In this list, quite a few members
share the impression that we are involved in a historical
transition in science. Maybe, as you and Andrea Roli state, it
could be the Third Great Transition. That it revolves around
putting into question the predominance of physicalist views was
coincidentally discussed in a previous discussion session, when
two pioneers of AI research (Yixin Zhong from China and Eric
Werner from Oxford) were arguing for a paradigm change away for
physicalism. Now you are providing strong arguments from the
biological self-construction and evolutionary points of view. An
important point is the argument on Kantian wholes, from the
closure of auto-catalitic sets. It could also be considered as the
organizational reliance on "cycles". In biological systems there
is a towering presence of cycles: from elementary reaction cycles,
to enzyme work-cycles, to regional reaction cycles, gene
expression cycles (your Boolean networks!!), to genetic
macro-cycles... to the cell's entire life cycle. And an even
larger story could be told about cycles in complex organisms... <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To put the argument in a nutshell: bye
to physicalism (as a fundamental meta-scientific vision). Yes, but
what would substitute for it?</div>
<div class="">I dare say "informationalism". You
mention the biosphere and the global economy, and even our
cultures. Aren't all them based on the circulation of "information
flows" (in vastly different forms, of course)??</div>
<div class="">Let us think, for instance, on the
enormous disarray created by the new social networks in our
societies... we do not much understand the psychological changes
derived for the intertwining of natural vs artifical info flows in
our societies. <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I am just reading Joseph's just arrived
comments, philosophically and formally oriented. Fine. I would ad
that we are lacking a vast informational view that can help us to
understand that strange world put into action 3,000 million years
ago, full of emergent realms. So, filling in the gap that
physicalim is unable to fill in consistently.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best regards to all,</div>
<div class="">--Pedro</div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class="">PS. If anyone has doubts about the
messages effectively distributed in the list, go please to the
instantaneous archive: <a href="http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/</a></b><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div class="">El 04/01/2024 a las 23:54, Stuart
Kauffman escribió:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Hello to All,</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I am truly grateful to have this opportunity to
discuss with you the recent Stuart Kauffman and Andrea Roli
paper, “A Third Transition In Science?” J. Roy. Soc. Interface,
4/ 14 2023. I attach a link below. It’s eventual publication in
a fine journal after almost two years has its own wry history. </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Andrea and I think we are correct, but we may be
wrong. More, I only slightly begin to understand what our
results, if correct, mean. </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I had thought that the First Transition in science
was Newton’s invention of Classical Physics in 1689 A.D. And I
thought the Second Transition was the reluctant discovery of
quantum mechanics between 1900 and 1927 A.D.</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I begin to suspect I was wrong. The First
Transition in science was in 1299A.D. when the first mechanical
clock was invented and installed at the Wallingford Abby. It was
installed because the monks were often late for prayers. Within
less than a century, Europe was dotted by chuch towers with ever
- more impressive mechanical clocks. Modern people in 1379 A.D.
must have begun to wonder if the World itself was some amazing
clockwork machine. Then Copernicus, 1543 A.D., then Kepler,
Galileo and Newton. </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">This, then, was the Second Transition in Science.
Yes, yes, yes! The World is a vast clockwork machine. No room
for God’s miracles – the Deistic God of the Enlightenment. No
room for mind – Descartes lost his Res cogitans to Newton’s Res
extensa. No Free Will.</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">With Planck, Heisenberg, and Schrodinger cam a loss
of determinism, but still within the Newtonian Paradigm. And no
mind and no responsible Free Will. </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">If Andrea and I are correct, this Third Transition
demonstrates for the first time since 1299AD, 725 years later,
that the evolving biosphere is not a clockwork machines.
Evolving life is not a machine at all. </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Are the two of us correct? If so, what does this
Third Transition portend? These issues now lies before us.</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Merci a tous,</div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Stu Kauffman</div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">A Third Transition in Science? Link </div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </p>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2022.0063__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RH-1N1FEJfqU41WdGgs7y8jJfe5UgMaHIJlh56CZUw76fWIEwZkUE9gIll06GR3L150IpC24ewV5iF7LveZK0HwbrDZ8$" style="color:rgb(149,79,114)" target="_blank" class="">https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2022.0063</a>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class=""><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
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