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    <p>Dear Lou,</p>
    <p>The boundary between rationality and hucksterism is vague. LLMs
      may mimic rationality enough to outperform most mathematicians.  I
      think you are overemphasizing implementation over function when
      regarding LLMs. Two systems may exhibit functioning rationality
      yet have very different instantiations/implementations.  So too
      with so many other mental states and processes. <br>
    </p>
    <p>Best,</p>
    <p>Eric <br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/7/23 5:57 AM, Louis Kauffman
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:877A3D35-E022-45ED-A976-6ABF39053EFF@gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      Dear Plamen,
      <div class="">You are hoping for AI language programs that can
        actually engage in reason.</div>
      <div class="">They do not yet exist.</div>
      <div class="">We do not yet have AI in this sense.</div>
      <div class="">It is the right goal and it can come when there is a
        proper synthesis of the non-publicized formal system handling
        and theorem proving systems and the </div>
      <div class="">language generation systems. The present language
        generation systems are producing language on the basis of most
        probable word generation from a big data base of human texts.
        This is not artificial intelligence, but it is being huckstered
        as such, alas. We can do better and we shall do better if the
        world survives.</div>
      <div class="">Best,</div>
      <div class="">Lou</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">
        <div>
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div class="">On Oct 27, 2023, at 7:40 AM, Dr. Plamen L.
              Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com"
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>>
              wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class="">
              <div dir="ltr" class="">
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Thank
                  you, Pedro, for this smart introduction of a new
                  aspect.</div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Particularly,
                  I am convinced that we urgently need AI help,
                  particularly in human patent and civil law with its
                  plenty of subfields to achieve true justice.</div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">The
                  current situation in many countries is that law
                  courts are just stuck in cases and the many decision
                  loops depend on an obsolete hierarchy and freedom of
                  interpretation by smart lawyers and "lawmakers", i.e.
                  parliament/congress representatives which does not
                  often mean justice as the people at the basis
                  understand it. In my view this is one of the reasons
                  why modern societies degrade: the lack of operative
                  justice.   </div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">I
                  know a German professor and inventor who tried to make
                  an AI based patent law proof engine. But his invention
                  got stuck in the need for unambiguous syntax and
                  semantics of the law LLMs used to be given to the
                  engine for binary processing. This "AI law machine"
                  would be a great invention, but it would certainly
                  make generations of lawyers and politicians
                  unemployed, which I wholeheartedly welcome ;-)</div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br
                    class="">
                </div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">By
                  the way, coming back shortly to my former essay on AI
                  "wisdom" today: I think that the best way to avoid and
                  kill tyranny these day is perhaps to invent and switch
                  on to a new "own" coded language and ignore all the
                  narrative bombarding us with the globalists'
                  transhumanist propaganda. So, we can leave them using
                  the conventional English as they wish. So, the more
                  people move to this new "Dumbledore" invented coded
                  language, the less power the unelected tyrants will
                  have on us. What do you think?</div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br
                    class="">
                </div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Best,</div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br
                    class="">
                </div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Plamen</div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br
                    class="">
                </div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br
                    class="">
                </div>
                <div class="gmail_default"
                  style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br
                    class="">
                </div>
              </div>
              <br class="">
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 27, 2023
                  at 2:16 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a
                    href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"
                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
                  wrote:<br class="">
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div class="">
                    <div class="">Dear List, (I have just seen Plamen's;
                      I could rephrase some of the below for the sake of
                      the argument, but it would become too long. And
                      about the server--Karl-- and also Marcus, yes
                      something is happening, I cannot accede to it
                      either. I will check).<br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class=""><br class="">
                    </div>
                    <div class="">Then, regarding the ongoing exchanges
                      on Wisdom, I was reminded of the TURING TEST (<span
                        class="" lang="en">from wiki: if a machine can
                        engage in a conversation with a human without
                        being detected as a machine, it has demonstrated
                        human intelligence). The test was applauded or
                        seriously considered decades ago, but now it is
                        just a bygone obsolete item. Any domestic AI
                        system passes the test. In my case I disliked
                        that test when I met it first time (late 70s). I
                        considered it as a symbol of the very
                        superficial "theorizing" in those new fields...
                        so I changed gears and finally focused on
                        "natural intelligence". <br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en">Regarding
                        wisdom, we take it as a exclusively human
                        quality, and seemingly binary. Either yes or no.
                        Humans have wisdom, machines don't. But like in
                        the case of intelligence, it probably is graded.
                        For the "formal" intelligence, an IQ gradation
                        was easily established time ago, not quite
                        perfect, but it was very widely used everywhere.
                        The, how an IQ of wisdom could be established?
                        Really difficult... it is the ages old
                        divergence between the analytical and the
                        integrative, the reductionist versus the
                        holistic. <br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en">My take is
                        that around Large Language Models a pretty small
                        but noticeable enough portion of wisdom has been
                        achieved, see for instance from the below
                        quotation. I am lightly cooperating in the AI
                        field "sentiment analysis", and have high hopes
                        that it can contribute to an improved
                        rationalization of human social emotions, the
                        study of which is painfully in disarray ins
                        Psycho and Sociology. No wonder the awful mental
                        state of many people in a number of societies...
                        There is a wonderful quotation from philosopher
                        Ortega y Gasset about that (but unfortunately
                        cannot locate it).</span><span class=""
                        lang="en"><br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en">All the
                        best--Pedro</span><br class="">
                      <span class="" lang="en"><span class=""><b
                            class=""><br class="">
                          </b></span></span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><span
                          class=""><b class="">Theory of Mind for
                            Multi-Agent Collaboration via Large Language
                            Models</b>. From Huao Li et al. , at: <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.10701__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WGQRbH1p47y_3QmXG5cnkavkcLaI6dQneyi1TygmW_kNa1lYM_Mf8gzFCzkD_vh6TMhRW5t-xmMIP2ud1gTy45FYyBUR$"
                            target="_blank" class=""
                            moz-do-not-send="true">https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.10701</a></span></span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en">"In this
                        study, we assessed the ability of recent large
                        language models (LLMs) to conduct embodied
                        interactions in a team task. Our results
                        demonstrate that LLM-based agents can handle
                        complex multi-agent collaborative tasks at a
                        level comparable with the state-of-the-art
                        reinforcement learning algorithm. <b class="">We
                          also observed evidence of emergent
                          collaborative behaviors and high-order Theory
                          of Mind capabilities</b> among LLM-based
                        agents. These findings confirm the potential
                        intelligence of LLMs in formal reasoning, world
                        knowledge, situation modeling and social
                        interactions. Furthermore, we discussed two
                        systematic failures that limit the performance
                        of LLM-based agents and proposed a
                        prompt-engineering method that <b class="">mitigates
                          these failures by incorporating an explicit
                          belief state about world knowledge</b> into
                        the model input."</span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><br class="">
                      </span></div>
                    <div class=""><span class="" lang="en"><span
                          class=""></span></span>El 27/10/2023 a las
                      12:36, Eric Werner escribió:<br class="">
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <p class="">Dear Yixin,</p>
                      <p class="">As you know from my different
                        responses regarding Wisdom and Meta-AI
                        (Artificial Wisdom) I am of a rather split
                        opinion: </p>
                      <p class="">On the one hand, the poetic emotional
                        side of me sees the necessary inclusion of an
                        ethics of fairness for all living creatures. I
                        am skeptical, like you, that AI can achieve this
                        consistently. I am worried about the
                        ramifications of using AI systems in a
                        military-governmental decision making process. <br
                          class="">
                      </p>
                      <p class="">On the other hand, it may well come
                        about that Meta-AI is possible. Such a system
                        poses questions, creates new problems that it
                        then solves.   Such a Meta-AI system could
                        rapidly explore different combinations of
                        explicit and implicit theoretical assumptions.
                        Leading to new theories about nature and the
                        world. It could then propose new experiments
                        that confirm or disconfirm its theory or
                        hypotheses. It could see long range
                        relationships, logical, mathematical in
                        different specialized theories or mental
                        frameworks.  Meta-AI is one of the founding
                        cornerstones of General AI.  It presupposes that
                        reasoning and not just parroting  can be learned
                        in some way.  <br class="">
                      </p>
                      <p class="">Some more thoughts on Wisdom: <br
                          class="">
                      </p>
                      <div dir="ltr" class="">
                        <div class="">
                          <h1 class="">Human wisdom is distributed and
                            contradictory<br class="">
                          </h1>
                        </div>
                        <ul class="">
                          <li class=""><b class="">AI models can contain
                              all of human wisdom </b>- including
                            conflicting Wisdom<br class="">
                          </li>
                          <li class=""><b class="">Conflicting Wisdom:</b></li>
                          <ul class="">
                            <li class="">One societies Wisdom may be
                              another societies doom<br class="">
                            </li>
                          </ul>
                          <li class=""><b class="">Realpolitik of human
                              wisdom</b></li>
                          <ul class="">
                            <li class="">As soon as limited resources,
                              come in we get conflict</li>
                          </ul>
                          <li class=""><b class="">Imagine 10 people </b>on
                            the land that supports 10 people if they all
                            share what they find among the other 10</li>
                          <ul class="">
                            <li class="">If they are greedy, it reduces
                              the population</li>
                            <li class="">It depends on if they really
                              need 10 to find the food for 10. If five
                              are sufficient to survive on the same land
                              with less stress, then there’s a
                              temptation to get rid of or disadvange the
                              other five</li>
                            <li class="">Increase and search or
                              intelligence algorithms whether a genetic
                              or soft can lead to more resource findings</li>
                            <li class="">Sharing knowledge leads to
                              greater distributed, productivity and more
                              can join the community</li>
                          </ul>
                          <li class="">T<b class="">he life and death
                              struggle</b></li>
                          <ul class="">
                            <li class="">Imagine another group of 10
                              comes in to the same area that supports
                              only 10. Then we get conflict. They may
                              cooperate but half have to die because of
                              limited resources.</li>
                            <li class="">Same holds for university
                              positions</li>
                            <li class="">Same holds for a limited
                              resources in well-to-do societies versus
                              less able societies</li>
                            <li class="">Taking advantage of one side's
                              ability against the other</li>
                          </ul>
                          <li class=""><b class="">Power Creates Laws to
                              Perpetuate Power </b><br class="">
                          </li>
                          <ul class="">
                            <li class="">Speech is regulated, prevent
                              thought and action that may lead to change
                              of the status quo of power</li>
                            <li class="">Servants must be servile <br
                                class="">
                            </li>
                            <li class="">Those in power must pretend to
                              be generous to the extent that the servant
                              does not rebel</li>
                            <li class="">The good master (wants to be
                              seen as Wise, knowing what is good for the
                              underlings)<br class="">
                            </li>
                            <li class="">The parasite must not kill its
                              host, unless or until it can jump to
                              another host</li>
                            <li class="">A parasite of a parasite leads
                              to a hierarchy of parasites <br class="">
                            </li>
                          </ul>
                          <li class="">L<b class="">imited Resources
                              Disturb the Ideal of Fairness and Absolute
                              Wisdom</b><br class="">
                          </li>
                          <ul class="">
                            <li class="">As soon as limited resources
                              come into play the ideal no longer works</li>
                            <li class="">The group with more power in
                              the given environment can win the
                              resources</li>
                            <li class="">With limited resources, there
                              can be no compromise after a certain point
                              of sharing</li>
                          </ul>
                        </ul>
                        Thus my ambivalence concerning Wisdom.</div>
                      <div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" class="">Best wishes,</div>
                      <div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" class="">Eric<br class="">
                      </div>
                      <br class="">
                      <br class="">
                      <div class="">On 10/25/23 2:12 PM, 钟义信 wrote:<br
                          class="">
                      </div>
                      <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                        <div class="">Dear Eric,</div>
                        <div class=""><br class="">
                        </div>
                        <div class="">There have many mysteries remained
                          in wisdom. This is one of the reasons that the
                          concept of AI does not involve wisdom and
                          therefore AI is able to solve problem but is
                          unable to define problem. </div>
                        <div class=""><br class="">
                        </div>
                        <div class="">Wisdom is creative in nature but
                          AI is not. It is my belief that humans can
                          build up AI but cannot build up AW (artificial
                          wisdom).</div>
                        <div class=""><br class="">
                        </div>
                        <div class="">Wisdom can only be owned by humans
                          but not by any machines. Do you think so?
                          Please give comments on the point.</div>
                        <div class=""><br class="">
                        </div>
                        <div class="">Best regards,</div>
                        <div class=""><br class="">
                        </div>
                        <div class="">Yixin  <br class="">
                          <br class="">
                          ----------<br class="">
                          <p class="">该邮件从移动设备发送<br class="">
                            <br>
                          </p>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
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