<div dir="ltr"> Sorry for the delayed response....<div><br><div>Wisdom, I think, is revealed in good judgment, and that is what Wittgenstein's comments come down to.</div><div>I agree with Mark that specialized knowledge is not the problem. For me the issue with the "growing heaps" is that much of it is procedural, and prescribes what people should do in what circumstances. This is not helpful for developing judgment.</div><div>A surgeon displays wisdom not because she carries out the prescribed procedures of her profession to the letter, but because she balances complex issues (e.g. quality of life, likely degree of trauma that the patient can withstand), and then deploys her scalpel wisely. This requires an understanding of, and commitment to a world outside herself, which computational systems do not have. Could she display wisdom without experiencing what it is to be a human, to have a family and friends, and what pain birth and death are? Could she display wisdom without caring about these matters?</div><div>Technical systems do not display judgment of this sort (including neural networks), and I do not think that they will do so within the present technological paradigm.</div><div><br></div><div>Dai</div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 at 13:14, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Pedro, all,<div><br></div><div>Your comment here is interesting: "Nevertheless, in our times whatever wisdom might be around remains buried under growing heaps of specialized, mostly technological knowledge."</div><div><br></div><div>There is a key question which arises from this: Do we think that wisdom is separable from the 'heaps of specialized technical knowledge'? Can a surgeon act wisely if they don't know how to use a scalpel? Is it important to know and do what we are talking about at some depth of experience? I suspect so. </div><div><br></div><div>So perhaps the problem is the "burying". What/who performs the burial? Education must be the first culprit there - what do we do about it? There's nothing stopping people gaining deeper specialised knowledge if they are so-motivated. But there is a lot that stops us making connections between deep practice, thought and judgement. </div><div><br></div><div>Wittgenstein made a similar comment in his discussion on aesthetics (here: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_and_Conversations_on_Aesthetics,_Psychology,_and_Religious_Belief__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UDM9seONslBjXfcZ8UBWA03nVBsuMBazB9J3KhN_Nu1Rabje1TQ00vqtl9Gae2nbSkArGz7p83TSbENdFH7ffuM$" target="_blank">Lectures and Conversations on Aesthetics, Psychology, and Religious Belief - Wikipedia</a>): </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:"Trebuchet MS",Trebuchet,Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:13.2px">When we make an aesthetic judgement about a thing, we do not just gape at it and say: "Oh! How marvellous!" We distinguish between a person who knows what he is talking about and a person who doesn't. If a person is to admire English poetry, he must know English. Suppose that a Russian who doesn't know English is overwhelmed by a sonnet admitted to be good. We would say that he does not know what is in it. In music this is more pronounced. Suppose there is a person who admires and enjoys what is admitted to be good but can't remember the simplest tunes, doesn't know when the bass comes in, etc. We say he hasn't seen what's in it. We use the phrase 'A man is musical' not so as to call a man musical if he says "Ah!" when a piece of music is played, any more than we call a dog musical if it wags its tail when music is played.</span> </blockquote><div> </div><div>If there is a paradigm shift that is required, it is an epistemological shift that is in this space. </div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div>Mark</div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 at 11:26, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear Chen and FIS colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Welcome to the list. Your comments on
the "main body" are interesting. They look close to the (Taoist?)
tradition of "<i>chi flow</i>" in the body. The interrelation
between the<i> li </i>and the <i>chi</i> in the organism looks
quite enigmatic (say, information flow vs. energy flow: time ago I
published about that from the point of view of cellular gauge
symmetry). This interesting "main body" theme may also be
connected with the discussions on consciousness... Nevertheless, I
fail to see the relationship with "wisdom". Most parties in this
list are discussing about wisdom from a "realist stance" (as
something clearly delimited in the real world) while I adopt a
"nominalist" position: it represents nothing but a useful
artificial convention about an unassailable phenomenon.
Nevertheless, in our times whatever wisdom might be around remains
buried under growing heaps of specialized, mostly technological
knowledge. Taking its evanescent presence as a crucial distinction
between humans and the new AI systems does not look very
"wise"... If we provide full Autonomy and maybe some form of
embodiment (robotic?) to these systems, well, things could be
pretty problematic, far beyond the realistic or nominalist stance
around wisdom.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BY THE WAY, THERE ARE AT LEAST 6
MESSAGES BLOCKED BY THE SERVER DUE TO THEIR EXCESSIVE LENGTH,
BEYOND THE LIMIT OF 300 K. SO DIFFICULT IS CLEANING THE "TAIL" OF
PREVIOUS MESSAGES (OR AT LEAST A PART OF THEM)???? ADMIRABLE
STUBBORNNESS OF SOME FIS COLLEAGUES!</div>
<div>--------------------------------------------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 30/10/2023 a las 2:13, shda1
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="line-height:1.7;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Arial">
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:monospace">Dear everyone,
</span></p>
<div><font face="monospace"><span>Sorry! I encountered a formatting error in my
reply yesterday and will resend it today.</span></font></div>
<div><font face="monospace"><span><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:monospace">I am delighted that everyone can discuss wisdom
from artificial intelligence. Here, I propose a more basic
and core concept about wisdom - the main body, which is the
fundamental concept of wisdom.</span></div>
<span style="font-family:monospace">
The main body, also known as the main body program, is a
high-level program combination of energy. The the main body
needs to combine with the organism in order to exist and form
a main body existence. Main body existence is an existence
with autonomy and initiative, and the extension of main body
is greater than that of the living body. The living body is
only a common type of main body existence.
AI has no main body, so no matter how powerful it may be, it
does not belong to the main body existence and can only be an
appendage of the living body. So, is there a possibility that
AI will also break through itself and gain the main body?
Never possible! The main body is a product of natural
evolution in the universe, which humans cannot manufacture and
can only use reasonably. Chen Wang
Visiting Professor at SEGD University
New Civilization International Cooperation Organization</span>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<pre>At 2023-10-29 21:39:54, "" <a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis-request@listas.unizar.es></a> wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Plamen)
> 2. Re: PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Eric Werner)
> 3. Re: PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:26:22 +0100
>From: Plamen <a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank"><plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com></a>
>To: fis <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
>Subject: [Fis] PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?.
>Message-ID: <a href="mailto:8BA2DCA1-27E6-4F2D-BA86-086716AA2AED@gmail.com" target="_blank"><8BA2DCA1-27E6-4F2D-BA86-086716AA2AED@gmail.com></a>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$</a>
>
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:16:40 +0100
>From: Eric Werner <a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
>To: Plamen <a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank"><plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com></a>, fis <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
>Subject: Re: [Fis] PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?.
>Message-ID: <a href="mailto:e6736449-2532-442e-b6d9-32e19024eafc@oarf.org" target="_blank"><e6736449-2532-442e-b6d9-32e19024eafc@oarf.org></a>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
>Dear Plamen,
>
>Fully agree that such systems can have bias and that this bias can
>infect humans. However, one person's bias is another's truth. All the
>experiment showed was the heritability of bias from AI system to human.?
>That is a problem.
>
>However, in a political setting one would have to very cautious when
>larger corporations and governments start to determine what is bias and
>what is not. '
>
>How to avoid "bias" will I think be an impossible task.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Eric
>
>On 10/29/23 1:26 PM, Plamen wrote:
>> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$</a>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
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</pre>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health</div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Manchester</div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Science Education</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Copenhagen</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Liverpool</div>Phone: 07786 064505<br>Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>Blog: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UDM9seONslBjXfcZ8UBWA03nVBsuMBazB9J3KhN_Nu1Rabje1TQ00vqtl9Gae2nbSkArGz7p83TSbENd34mxhhs$" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a></div></div></div></div>
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