<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Plamen,<div class="">You are hoping for AI language programs that can actually engage in reason.</div><div class="">They do not yet exist.</div><div class="">We do not yet have AI in this sense.</div><div class="">It is the right goal and it can come when there is a proper synthesis of the non-publicized formal system handling and theorem proving systems and the </div><div class="">language generation systems. The present language generation systems are producing language on the basis of most probable word generation from a big data base of human texts. This is not artificial intelligence, but it is being huckstered as such, alas. We can do better and we shall do better if the world survives.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 27, 2023, at 7:40 AM, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" class="">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Thank you, Pedro, for this smart introduction of a new aspect.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Particularly, I am convinced that we urgently need AI help, particularly in human patent and civil law with its plenty of subfields to achieve true justice.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">The current situation in many countries is that law courts are just stuck in cases and the many decision loops depend on an obsolete hierarchy and freedom of interpretation by smart lawyers and "lawmakers", i.e. parliament/congress representatives which does not often mean justice as the people at the basis understand it. In my view this is one of the reasons why modern societies degrade: the lack of operative justice. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">I know a German professor and inventor who tried to make an AI based patent law proof engine. But his invention got stuck in the need for unambiguous syntax and semantics of the law LLMs used to be given to the engine for binary processing. This "AI law machine" would be a great invention, but it would certainly make generations of lawyers and politicians unemployed, which I wholeheartedly welcome ;-)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">By the way, coming back shortly to my former essay on AI "wisdom" today: I think that the best way to avoid and kill tyranny these day is perhaps to invent and switch on to a new "own" coded language and ignore all the narrative bombarding us with the globalists' transhumanist propaganda. So, we can leave them using the conventional English as they wish. So, the more people move to this new "Dumbledore" invented coded language, the less power the unelected tyrants will have on us. What do you think?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Plamen</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br class=""></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 2:16 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" class="">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear List, (I have just seen Plamen's;
I could rephrase some of the below for the sake of the argument,
but it would become too long. And about the server--Karl-- and
also Marcus, yes something is happening, I cannot accede to it
either. I will check).<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Then, regarding the ongoing exchanges
on Wisdom, I was reminded of the TURING TEST (<span lang="en" class="">from wiki: if a machine can
engage in a conversation with a human without being detected
as a machine, it has demonstrated human intelligence). The
test was applauded or seriously considered decades ago, but
now it is just a bygone obsolete item. Any domestic AI system
passes the test. In my case I disliked that test when I met it
first time (late 70s). I considered it as a symbol of the very
superficial "theorizing" in those new fields... so I changed
gears and finally focused on "natural intelligence". <br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class="">Regarding wisdom, we take it as a exclusively
human quality, and seemingly binary. Either yes or no. Humans
have wisdom, machines don't. But like in the case of
intelligence, it probably is graded. For the "formal"
intelligence, an IQ gradation was easily established time ago,
not quite perfect, but it was very widely used everywhere.
The, how an IQ of wisdom could be established? Really
difficult... it is the ages old divergence between the
analytical and the integrative, the reductionist versus the
holistic. <br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class="">My take is that around Large Language Models a
pretty small but noticeable enough portion of wisdom has been
achieved, see for instance from the below quotation. I am
lightly cooperating in the AI field "sentiment analysis", and
have high hopes that it can contribute to an improved
rationalization of human social emotions, the study of which
is painfully in disarray ins Psycho and Sociology. No wonder
the awful mental state of many people in a number of
societies... There is a wonderful quotation from philosopher
Ortega y Gasset about that (but unfortunately cannot locate
it).</span><span lang="en" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class="">All the best--Pedro</span><br class="">
<span lang="en" class=""><span class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></span></span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><span class=""><b class="">Theory of Mind for Multi-Agent Collaboration
via Large Language Models</b>. From Huao Li et al. , at:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.10701__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WGQRbH1p47y_3QmXG5cnkavkcLaI6dQneyi1TygmW_kNa1lYM_Mf8gzFCzkD_vh6TMhRW5t-xmMIP2ud1gTy45FYyBUR$" target="_blank" class="">https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.10701</a></span></span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class="">"In this study, we assessed the ability of
recent large
language models (LLMs) to conduct embodied
interactions in a team task. Our results demonstrate that
LLM-based agents can handle complex
multi-agent collaborative tasks at a level comparable with the
state-of-the-art reinforcement learning
algorithm. <b class="">We also observed evidence of emergent
collaborative behaviors and high-order Theory of Mind
capabilities</b> among LLM-based agents.
These findings confirm the potential intelligence of
LLMs in formal reasoning, world knowledge, situation modeling
and social interactions. Furthermore,
we discussed two systematic failures that limit the
performance of LLM-based agents and proposed
a prompt-engineering method that <b class="">mitigates these
failures by incorporating an explicit belief state
about world knowledge</b> into the model input."</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span lang="en" class=""><span class=""></span></span>El 27/10/2023 a las 12:36, Eric
Werner escribió:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><p class="">Dear Yixin,</p><p class="">As you know from my different responses regarding Wisdom and
Meta-AI (Artificial Wisdom) I am of a rather split opinion: </p><p class="">On the one hand, the poetic emotional side of me sees the
necessary inclusion of an ethics of fairness for all living
creatures. I am skeptical, like you, that AI can achieve this
consistently. I am worried about the ramifications of using AI
systems in a military-governmental decision making process. <br class="">
</p><p class="">On the other hand, it may well come about that Meta-AI is
possible. Such a system poses questions, creates new problems
that it then solves. Such a Meta-AI system could rapidly
explore different combinations of explicit and implicit
theoretical assumptions. Leading to new theories about nature
and the world. It could then propose new experiments that
confirm or disconfirm its theory or hypotheses. It could see
long range relationships, logical, mathematical in different
specialized theories or mental frameworks. Meta-AI is one of
the founding cornerstones of General AI. It presupposes that
reasoning and not just parroting can be learned in some way. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Some more thoughts on Wisdom: <br class="">
</p>
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<h1 class="">Human wisdom is distributed and contradictory<br class="">
</h1>
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class=""><b class="">AI models can contain all of human wisdom </b>-
including conflicting Wisdom<br class="">
</li>
<li class=""><b class="">Conflicting Wisdom:</b></li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">One societies Wisdom may be another societies doom<br class="">
</li>
</ul>
<li class=""><b class="">Realpolitik of human wisdom</b></li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">As soon as limited resources, come in we get conflict</li>
</ul>
<li class=""><b class="">Imagine 10 people </b>on the land that supports 10
people if they all share what they find among the other 10</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">If they are greedy, it reduces the population</li>
<li class="">It depends on if they really need 10 to find the food
for 10. If five are sufficient to survive on the same land
with less stress, then there’s a temptation to get rid of
or disadvange the other five</li>
<li class="">Increase and search or intelligence algorithms whether a
genetic or soft can lead to more resource findings</li>
<li class="">Sharing knowledge leads to greater distributed,
productivity and more can join the community</li>
</ul>
<li class="">T<b class="">he life and death struggle</b></li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Imagine another group of 10 comes in to the same area
that supports only 10. Then we get conflict. They may
cooperate but half have to die because of limited
resources.</li>
<li class="">Same holds for university positions</li>
<li class="">Same holds for a limited resources in well-to-do
societies versus less able societies</li>
<li class="">Taking advantage of one side's ability against the other</li>
</ul>
<li class=""><b class="">Power Creates Laws to Perpetuate Power </b><br class="">
</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Speech is regulated, prevent thought and action that may
lead to change of the status quo of power</li>
<li class="">Servants must be servile <br class="">
</li>
<li class="">Those in power must pretend to be generous to the extent
that the servant does not rebel</li>
<li class="">The good master (wants to be seen as Wise, knowing what
is good for the underlings)<br class="">
</li>
<li class="">The parasite must not kill its host, unless or until it
can jump to another host</li>
<li class="">A parasite of a parasite leads to a hierarchy of
parasites <br class="">
</li>
</ul>
<li class="">L<b class="">imited Resources Disturb the Ideal of Fairness and
Absolute Wisdom</b><br class="">
</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">As soon as limited resources come into play the ideal no
longer works</li>
<li class="">The group with more power in the given environment can
win the resources</li>
<li class="">With limited resources, there can be no compromise after
a certain point of sharing</li>
</ul>
</ul>
Thus my ambivalence concerning Wisdom.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Best wishes,</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Eric<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">On 10/25/23 2:12 PM, 钟义信 wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Dear Eric,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There have many mysteries remained in wisdom. This is one
of the reasons that the concept of AI does not involve wisdom
and therefore AI is able to solve problem but is unable to
define problem. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Wisdom is creative in nature but AI is not. It is my belief
that humans can build up AI but cannot build up AW (artificial
wisdom).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Wisdom can only be owned by humans but not by any machines.
Do you think so? Please give comments on the point.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best regards,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Yixin <br class="">
<br class="">
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--------------原始邮件--------------<br class="">
发件人："Eric Werner "<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;<br class="">
发送时间：2023年10月25日(星期三) 晚上7:00<br class="">
收件人："钟义信" <a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" class=""><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;<br class="">
抄送："Joeseph Brenner "<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" class=""><joe.brenner@bluewin.ch></a>;"fis
"<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;<br class="">
主题：Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human Wisdom vs
Meta-Intelligence<br class="">
-----------------------------------<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear Yixin,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:19px" class=""><b class="">The Relativity and
Realpolitik of Human Wisdom:</b></span></div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:19px" class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></span></div>
<div class="">Once we relativize Wisdom to human beings and excluded
from artificial intelligent systems then wisdom will vary
over different human beings. A grandmother may have a
different kind of wisdom then a grandfather. It will vary
in different cultures. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Another problem is that wisdom can be for the good of
all or for the good of a few if it’s restricted or if it’s
malevolent. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">“Knowing how” is a kind of strategic wisdom that can
be transferred from one person to another or from a AI
model to another AI model, robot, or human. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To set the boundary between what is beneficial for all
human beings may and what is not may in itself create an
inherent contradiction. This is especially so if there is
conflict between groups of humans or animals or even AI
systems. <br class="">
<br class="">
It may be that a met-AI system may be better at
differentiating in a neutral way between human needs
because of its inherent nonhuman neutrality. This of
course, has its problems as well. Indeed the very
creation of the AI model may be set with bias, as is seen
in the conflicts between leftist and rightist AI models.
Determining neutrality may be impossible in a social
setting of diverse beliefs. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What may be perceived as good for one group of humans
may be disastrous for another group of human beings. This
is seen clearly in the relationship between humans and
animals where what is good for humans is not always good
for say a pig or a cow or a duck or a chicken. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thus even the notion of being good for all human beings
maybe beset with problems that are potentially
insurmountable especially in the political world. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So that is the realpolitik and relativity of human
wisdom.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best wishes,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Eric </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Sent from my iPad</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Oct 25, 2023, at 12:25 PM,
钟义信 <a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" class=""><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Dear Joe, Eric, and colleagues,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">For the simplity of my reply I just emphase one
point that is, all study carried out by humans
should be based on human centered stand. Otherwise,
humans' research leads to extinguish humans
themself. That would be meaningless.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best regards, <br class="">
<br class="">
----------<br class=""><p class="">该邮件从移动设备发送<br class="">
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--------------原始邮件--------------<br class="">
发件人："Joeseph Brenner "<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" class=""><joe.brenner@bluewin.ch></a>;<br class="">
发送时间：2023年10月25日(星期三) 下午5:17<br class="">
收件人："Eric Werner" <a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;"钟义信"
<a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" class=""><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;"fis"
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;<br class="">
主题：Re: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human
Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence<br class="">
-----------------------------------<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><font size="3" class="">Dear Yixin, Dear Eric,</font>
<div class=""><font size="3" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class="">I very much welcome your
complexification of the notion of
wisdom/intelligence. First of all, it
eliminates the flavor of omnipotence which
accompanies some discourse on Artificial
Intelligence.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class="">One now needs to define
further the characteristics of Human Centered
Wisdom (what Yixin has been talking about all
along) so that the same mistakes are not made
in discussing Artificial Human Centered
Wisdom.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class="">My suggestion would be to look
at the kinds of logic ("Eastern" or "Western")
that are most applicable to/in the two
domains. Are we sure, however, that all our
objectives can be achieved by reference to
problem solving. Of course, living with
unsolved problems simply carries out an
additional iteration or recursion step, but it
might be worthwhile if this were recognized
explicitly.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><span class="">Eric concludes
"It seems AHCW is more restrictive than AMI".
I agree, but suggest it should be said that
AHCW is also more restrictive than HCW.</span></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class="">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="3" class="">Joseph <br class="">
</font>
<blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px" class="">----Original Message----<br class="">
From : <a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" class="">eric.werner@oarf.org</a><br class="">
Date : 24/10/2023 - 10:54 (E)<br class="">
To : <a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" class="">zyx@bupt.edu.cn</a>,
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
Subject : Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue
12 Human Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence<br class="">
<br class=""><p class="">Dear Yixin,</p><p class="">Just had some clarifying thoughts while
taking a shower (embodied intelligence 😉)</p><p class="">You state: "<font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">In the context of technical study,
wisdom means the ability to define the
problem, which should be good for all
humans if solved, and intelligence means
the ability to solve the problem defined
by wisdom." <br class="">
</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">To
clarify:</font></p>
<ol class="">
<li class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class=""> Let
me define the ability to define the
problem as <b class="">Meta-Intelligence MI<br class="">
<br class="">
</b></font></li>
<li class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">And
define </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">ability to define
the problem, which should be<b class=""> good for
all humans</b> if solved, as <b class="">Human-Centered-Wisdom
</b></font><font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">HCW</font><br class="">
<font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></font></li>
<li class="">Define <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><b class=""> intelligence</b> as the
ability to solve the problem defined by
Meta-Intelligence or
Human-Centered-Wisdom <br class="">
</font></li>
</ol><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">Under
these definitions, Artificial Human
Centered Wisdom AHCW will be a different
challenge than Artificial Meta
Intelligence AMI <br class="">
</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">Given
the right technology AMI may well be
achievable and may give different answers
than Artificial Human Centered Wisdom, if
the latter is even achievable.</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">I
think this clarifies the differences in
understanding of wisdom and the capacity
to intelligently solve the problems posed
by the different types of Wisdom. It seems
AHCW is more restritive than AMI. <br class="">
</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">Best
wishes,</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">Eric
<br class="">
</font></p>
<div class=""> On 10/24/23 9:26
AM, Eric Werner wrote: <br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><p class="">Dear Yixin, <br class="">
</p><p class="">I am getting a better understanding of
what you mean by wisdom. Thank you for
your patience! <br class="">
</p><p class="">This morning I had some thoughts
described below. <br class="">
</p><p class="">You state: "<font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">In the context of technical
study, wisdom means the ability to
define the problem, which should be good
for all humans if solved, and
intelligence means the ability to solve
the problem defined by wisdom." <br class="">
</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">In
mathematics and other sciences, there is
the difference between proving theorems
and discovering a theorem. Many bright
mathematicians make their name by
proving theorems. Others like Gödel in
his proof of the incompleteness theorem
(inherent limits of the axiomatic
method) linked together very different
concepts-methods (Cantor's diagonal
method and </font><span style="color:rgb(232,234,237);font-family:"Google Sans",arial,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;background-color:rgb(32,33,36);display:inline;float:none" class="">arithmetization</span><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">) to
come up with a wonderful result.
Proving is commonplace compared to
coming up with a concept. <br class="">
</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">Missing
from the parrot-like LLMs is true
reasoning and questioning. <br class="">
</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">However,
I am not convinced that an artificial
intelligent-rational system would not be
able to formulate its own questions,
create new concepts and new method of
solving its own conundrums. <br class="">
</font></p><p class=""><font size="4" face="Times New Roman" class="">Here
are the other earlier thoughts of this
morning:</font></p>
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<h1 class="">Can wisdom be learned?</h1>
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Artificial wisdom AW</li>
<li class="">Social wisdom SW</li>
<li class="">Artificial Social Wisdom ASW</li>
<li class="">Embodied AI, Embodied AW</li>
<li class="">Artificial Ethics AE</li>
<li class="">Human wisdom HW as generated by
experience<br class="">
</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Rare </li>
<li class="">There but for the grace of God go
I</li>
<li class="">We often cannot understand someone
until are in their shoes- experience
their situation </li>
<li class="">Examples: Growing old, living in a
different country or culture or
region, learning or knowing a
different subject, being in a war
zone </li>
<li class="">You have to know two or more
subjects to interrelate them </li>
</ul>
<li class="">Artificial rationality AR</li>
<li class="">Understanding requires</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Information </li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">State </li>
<li class="">Intention-Strategic<br class="">
</li>
<li class="">Value - Emotional Info<br class="">
</li>
</ul>
<li class="">Operators </li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Transform information </li>
<li class="">This gives the dynamics to
rational thought<br class="">
</li>
</ul>
<li class="">Ability or capacities </li>
<li class="">Intelligence </li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Circular?? Rational inference</li>
<li class="">Questioning and reasoning in
self dialogue<br class="">
</li>
</ul>
<li class="">Can intelligence be learned?</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Seems to require basic
competencies-capacities<br class="">
</li>
<li class="">Reasoning </li>
<li class="">Social </li>
<li class="">Emotional </li>
<li class="">Wisdom (circular)</li>
</ul>
<li class="">How organized is the brain?</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Inherent competencies </li>
<li class="">Modular capacities of the brain<br class="">
</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Linguistic, visual, auditory,
semantic, pragmatic, motor<br class="">
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<li class="">Wisdom Requires </li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Experience</li>
<li class="">Capacities </li>
<li class="">Reasoning </li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Dynamic</li>
<li class="">Self reflection </li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</div>
<br class=""><p class="">Hope this clarifies my thoughts somewhat.
</p><p class="">In summary, I am inclined to view the
possibility of Artificial Wisdom AW as a
very real possibility. It is an open
question whether the Parrot-Like-LLMs will
ever achieve AW, but a hybrid might. </p><p class="">Kind regards,</p><p class="">Eric<br class="">
</p>
<div class=""> On 10/24/23
3:58 AM, 钟义信 wrote: <br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">Dear Eric,</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">I am also very worried about
the military uses of AI. This is an
issue on technical ethics and needs
the strong cooperation between all
governments. </font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">We, as scientists and
professors, have the responsibility to
promote the study of technical ethics
in AI. At the same time, we have to
pay more attentions to the technical
study of AI itself.</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">I agree with you on the
characters of wisdom: fairness,
kindness, love, for all humans, for
all life, and, all in all, for living
and developments of all people.</font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">In the context of technical
study, wisdom means the ability to
define the problem, which should be
good for all humans if solved, and
intelligence means the ability to
solve the problem defined by wisdom.</font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">Keeping the difference between
wisdom and intelligence mentioned
above, it is believed that
intelligence can be simulated by
machine whereas wisdom cannot be
simulated by machine. In other word, <u class="">AI
cannot be creative in the meaning of
unable to define the problem good
for all humans in solved</u>. I
wonder if you agree or not.</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">Best regards,</font> </div>
<div class=""> <u class=""></u>
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Verdana;" class="">
<div style="overflow:hidden" class="">
<div style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0px;padding:0px 10px 0px 15px;border-right-width:1px;border-right-style:solid;border-right-color:rgb(222,222,222)" class="">
<div style="max-height:150px;overflow:hidden;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;overflow:hidden;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;overflow:hidden;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn" class=""> </div>
</div>
<div style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:rgb(160,160,160);zoom:1" class="">
<h4 style="margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 28px; zoom: 1;" class="">Prof. Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div class=""> AI School, BUPT </div>
<div class=""> Beijing 100876, China </div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: 22px; color: rgb(160, 160, 160);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<u class=""></u> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> <u class=""></u>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div style="" class="">
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:"Arial Narrow";padding:2px 0px" class="">
------------------ Original
------------------ </div>
<div style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(239,239,239);padding:8px" class="">
<div id="m_1366514183955712927menu_sender" class=""> <b class="">From: </b> "Eric
Werner" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
</div>
<div class=""> <b class="">Date: </b> Mon, Oct 23,
2023 05:33 PM </div>
<div class=""> <b class="">To: </b> "钟义信" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;
"fis" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
</div>
<div class=""> <b class="">Subject: </b> Re:
[Fis]回复： Fis Digest, Vol 105,
Issue 12 </div>
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<div lang="x-unicode" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<h1 class=""><br class="">
</h1>
Dear Yixin, Ma </div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Thank you all for your
thoughtful contributions
Krassimir, Marcus, Pedro,
Yixin. Thinking about
wisdom and human nature and
AI. Recently viewing the
uses of AI in weapons
systems already being
designed and produced by
corporations that sell to
governments, made me
hesitate about what we are
doing. We need a deep
discussion about artificial
intelligence in a social
industrial governmental
military context. <br class="">
<h1 class="">AI in love and war</h1>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">We
walk lightly along the
edge of a deep ravine,
</b></i> </div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">where
can be seen </b></i>
</div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">the
results of passions
played. </b></i> </div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">Oh,
I loved too much, </b></i>
</div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">and
by such, by such </b></i>
</div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">is
happiness thrown away.</b></i>
</div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">I
had wooed not as I
should</b></i> </div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">a
creature made of clay</b></i>
</div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">When
the angel woos the
clay </b></i> </div>
<div align="center" class=""> <i class=""><b class="">he'd
lose his wings<br class="">
</b></i> </div>
<div align="center" class=""> <b class="">at
the dawning of the day</b>
</div>
<div align="center" class=""> <b class=""><br class="">
</b> </div>
<div align="center" class="">
(Adapted from a poem 'On
Raglan Road' by Patrick
Kavanagh) <br class="">
</div>
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Wisdom in the wide human
sense</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Fairness</li>
<li class="">Kindness</li>
<li class="">Love</li>
<li class="">For all humans </li>
<li class="">For all life</li>
</ul>
<li class="">Military uses of AI</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Goal directed</li>
<li class="">Antagonistic</li>
<li class="">Cooperative</li>
<li class="">Destructive</li>
<li class="">Murderous </li>
<li class="">Anti-human</li>
<li class="">Financially motivated</li>
</ul>
<li class="">An AI model is like a
child</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">It can be molded to
the wishes of the user</li>
<li class="">At the same time, it’s
like a mother that
responds to every wish</li>
<li class="">It is an all knowing
God</li>
<li class="">Connected to a robotic
system, it can heal, but
it can also murder</li>
<li class="">AI is a child of
humankind</li>
<li class="">All too human</li>
<li class="">A savior and genocidal</li>
</ul>
<li class="">What will we do?<br class="">
</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
<div lang="x-unicode" class=""> King regards,
</div>
<div lang="x-unicode" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div lang="x-unicode" class=""> Eric </div>
<div lang="x-unicode" class=""> <br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""> Sent from my
iPhone </div>
</div>
<div class=""> On
10/22/23 9:43 AM, <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class="">zyx@bupt.edu.cn</a>
wrote: <br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="auto" class=""> Dear Eric,
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> You proposed a number of
points which are interesting
and important Thank you
very much! </div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> I would like to discuss
at least some of them not
now, but a few days later
because my notebook was
trouble some the day before
yesterday. </div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Best wished, </div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Yixin <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div id="m_1366514183955712927hw_signature" class="">
发自我的手机 </div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="line-height:1.5" class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-------- 原始邮件 -------- <br class="">
发件人： Eric Werner <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
<br class="">
日期： 2023年10月19日周四 傍晚5:56 <br class="">
收件人： 钟义信 <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>,
fis <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
<br class="">
主 题： Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol
105, Issue 12 <br class="">
<blockquote class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Dear Yixin,</p><p class="">Can you be more
specific what you mean
by "change the paradigm
used in AI". It might
help to give a specific
example. </p><p class="">*At present AI systems
certainly behave as if
they are goal directed.
<br class="">
</p><p class="">*AI systems appear to
have wisdom in that they
can propose wise courses
of action</p><p class="">* What do you mean by
"pure formalism"? It
seems one of the powers
of formalism is to
understand AI and human
intelligence. <br class="">
</p><p class="">* It seems AI systems
exhibit human-like
wisdom when they offer
advice or guide the
actions of a virtual
assistant or self
driving car. The react
based on the
circumstances and goals
of the other, at leas to
an extent. <br class="">
</p><p class="">* Why can't a machine
understand human goals
and purposes if it gains
a model of those from
human data? <br class="">
</p><p class="">* Why can't an AI
system have intentions?
<br class="">
</p><p class="">My overall problem is
understanding your
specific criticism of
the present AI paradigm?
This notion seems to me
to need clearer
definition. <br class="">
</p><p class="">How would you overcome
the present AI paradigm
and what specifically is
different when you want
to "change the paradigm
used in AI"???</p><p class="">This is not a criticism
it is a real question in
trying to understand
you. At present I just
don't see the difference
between the present AI
paradigm and your new AI
paradigm. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Best wishes,</p><p class="">Eric <br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class=""> On 10/19/23 8:48 AM,
钟义信 wrote: <br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="">
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">Dear
Krassimir, Dear
Eric, and Dear
Colleagues,</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">The
discussion is going
on well thanks to
all your efforts.</font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">Here is a few
points I would like
to mention (or
re-mention).</font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">(1) The
purpose of the
"declaration on
Paradigm Change in
AI" is to make an
appeal for <u class="">change
the paradigm used
in AI.</u> </font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">(2) There may
have different
understanding on the
concept of paradigm.
However, <u class="">the
concept of
paradigm for a
scientific
discipline has
been re-defined as
the scientific
world view and the
associated
methodology</u> because
the scientific
worldview and its
methodology as a
whole is the only
factor that can
determine whether a
scientific
discipline needs a
"revolution" (Kuhn's
language).</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">(3) The major
result of "paradigm
change in AI" is <u class="">to
change the
methodology used
in AI, including
the principles of
"pure formalism"
and "divide and
conquer"</u>.
This is because of
the fact that <u class="">the
former principle
leads to the
ignoring the
meaning and value
and thus leads to
the loss of
understanding
ability and
explaining ability</u>
while <u class="">the latter
one leads to the
loss of the
general theory for
AI</u>. Note that
"no explaining
ability" and "no
general theory" are
the most typical and
also most concerned
problems for current
AI.</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">(4) There is
<u class="">difference
between human
intelligence and
human wisdom</u>.
One of the functions
of human wisdom is
to find the
to-be-solved problem
which must be
meaningful for human
purpose of improving
the living and
developing. Yet, the
function of human
intelligence is to
solve the problem
defined by human
wisdom. </font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">(5) Human
intelligence can be
simulated by
machine. But human
wisdom cannot be
simulated by machine
because machine is
non-living beings
that has no its own
purpose and cannot
understand human
purpose. No purpose
means no wisdom.</font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">I wonder if
you agree or not.
Comments are
welcome!</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times New
Roman" class="">Best regards,</font>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="SimSun,STSong" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: verdana;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0px;padding:0px 10px 0px 15px;border-right-width:1px;border-right-style:solid;border-right-color:rgb(222,222,222)" class="">
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn" class=""> </div>
</div>
<div style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:rgb(160,160,160)" class="">
<h4 style="margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 28px;" class="">Prof. Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div class=""> AI School,
BUPT </div>
<div class=""> Beijing
100876, China
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: 22px; color: rgb(160, 160, 160);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div style="" class="">
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:"arial narrow";padding:2px 0px" class="">
------------------
Original
------------------
</div>
<div style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(239,239,239);padding:8px" class="">
<div class=""> <b class="">From: </b> "Krassimir
Markov" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><itheaiss@gmail.com></a>;
</div>
<div class=""> <b class="">Date: </b> Thu,
Oct 19, 2023
03:32 AM </div>
<div class=""> <b class="">To: </b> "fis"
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
</div>
<div class=""> <b class="">Subject:
</b> Re: [Fis]
Fis Digest, Vol
105, Issue 12 </div>
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
Dear Yixin,
Eric and FIS
colleagues,
<div class=""> Let me
present some
thoughts about
</div>
<div class=""><p style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" align="center" class=""><b class="">The
“Intelligence”
Paradigm</b></p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">For
those who are
not familiar
with the
concepts of
"paradigm" and
"paradigm
shift", I
would
recommend
texts from
Wikipedia that
explain it
clearly
enough.</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">I
myself
maintain a
neutral
position in
the dispute
between Popper
and Kuhn
regarding the
development of
science. Both
theses have
their grounds,
but at
different
levels and
stages. In
fact, in this
case, the law
of
quantitative
accumulation,
which leads to
qualitative
changes,
applies.
Obviously, in
a number of
cases the
paradigm shift
happens in
leaps and
bounds, while
in others it
happens
smoothly and
barely
perceptibly.</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">For
example, the
accumulation
of sufficient
observations
and evidences
regarding the
shape of the
earth required
a shift to a
new paradigm:
from the
"Earth is
flat" paradigm
to the "Earth
is not flat"
paradigm.</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">Sometimes
opposing
paradigms can
coexist, not
negating each
other, but
complementing
each other.
For example,
this is the
case with
Euclid's fifth
postulate (the
parallel
postulate).</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">The
postulate has
long been
considered
self-evident
or inevitable,
but no
evidence has
been found.
Eventually, it
was discovered
that reversing
the postulate
gave valid,
albeit
different,
geometries. A
geometry where
the
parallelism
postulate does
not hold is
known as
non-Euclidean
geometry.</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">With
regard to the
paradigm of
"intelligence"
we have a
similar
situation. We
have at least
two opposing
paradigms
based on two
opposing
postulates.</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">The
first, let's
call it the
"flat
intelligence
postulate",
was well
articulated by
Yixin in his
post:</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">"Intelligence
is the ability
to solve
problems, but
not the
ability to
detect and
define
problems, the
latter of
which is one
of the
faculties of
wisdom."</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">The
second, let's
call it the
"non-flat
intelligence
postulate",
will sound
unifying:
"Intelligence
is both the
ability to
solve problems
and the
ability to
detect and
define
problems"
(Eric), but in
different
directions in
the hierarchy
of
intelligences
(KM)". This is
how we arrive
at the idea of
cybernetic
systems, where
there is a
controller and
a controlled,
but the
controller is
connected to
the
environment
from which it
receives
controlling
influences and
is, in
practice, both
"controller"
and
"controlled",
but in
different
aspects of the
system.</p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-size: 11pt; font-family: calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height:115%" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<img width="472" height="359" class="">
<br class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-size: 11pt; font-family: calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height:115%" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="text-align: center; margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-size: 11pt; font-family: calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height:115%" class=""></span><span style="line-height:115%" class=""></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p style="text-align:center;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" align="center" class=""><br class="">
</p><p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" class="">To
be continued
...</p>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
На ср,
18.10.2023 г.
в 15:07 ч. <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><fis-request@listas.unizar.es></a>
написа: <br class="">
</div>
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Today's
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1. Re:
Paradigm AI -
I guess we
call it Genius
(Eric Werner)
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
----------
Forwarded
message
---------- <br class="">
From: Eric
Werner <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
<br class="">
To: Karl
Javorszky <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><karl.javorszky@gmail.com></a>
<br class="">
Cc: "钟义信" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>,
fis <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
<br class="">
Bcc: <br class="">
Date: Wed, 18
Oct 2023
14:07:13 +0200
<br class="">
Subject: Re:
[Fis] Paradigm
AI - I guess
we call it
Genius <br class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Dear Karl,</p><p class="">Thank you
for bringing
this important
point to my
attention.
Here are some
thoughts:<br class="">
</p>
<div class="">
<h1 class="">I guess we
call it Genius
</h1>
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Difference
between
generating and
understanding
or reading</li>
<li class="">Super
intelligence,
requires
genius or
generational
understanding</li>
<li class="">Generative
intelligence</li>
<li class="">Creative
intelligence</li>
<li class="">Compositional
intelligence</li>
<li class="">Formative
intelligence</li>
<li class="">Evolutional
intelligence</li>
<li class="">Restricting,
intelligence
to
problem-solving,
dismisses,
creative acts
of composition
in science and
the arts</li>
<li class="">Think of
Heinz Kohut’s
formation of
the self in
psychology
versus
Freudian
reactive
psychology</li>
<li class="">It’s the
difference
between
discovering a
theorem, and
proving the
theorem</li>
<li class="">It’s the
difference
between
school-boy
problem-solving,
and Newton</li>
<li class="">Some
psychologists
think of
intelligence
in
relationship
to testing
people for
their ability
to cope in
educational
institutions.
They want to
see if they
are college
material or
not. <br class="">
</li>
<li class="">With
future All
systems were
talking about
Newton level
intelligence
not college
level
intelligence</li>
<li class="">Kantian
synthetic
intelligence </li>
<li class="">We better
be ready for
that! If not,
we got some
real problems.
<br class="">
</li>
<li class="">That is
why making
these systems
social and
cooperative is
so essential.<br class="">
</li>
</ul><p class="">We may
quickly reach
a point where
the
compositional
creative
intelligence
of artificial
models is so
powerful, we
will not be
able to
understand
them. Not just
how they work.
We already
don't
understand how
they work now.
But their
reasoning and
new outputs
such, as for
example,
mathematical
insights.
Imagine a
system that
can reason and
develop 2,000
years of
mathematics in
a few minutes.
It is
precisely this
overarching
linking of
knowledge that
makes for real
intelligence
such as that
of Leibniz or
Newton. The
old school
model of
psychological
testing of
intelligence
uses a
definition of
intelligence
that is to
limiting for
AI models. AI
models are not
your evey day
student. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Best
wishes,</p><p class="">Eric<br class="">
</p>
<div class=""> On
10/18/23 12:59
PM, Karl
Javorszky
wrote: <br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><p class="">Dear Eric,</p><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">Your
statement:
„The essence
of general
intelligence
is the ability
to not only
solve an
externally
given problem
but to be
creative and
find and
define
problems.” is
at deviance to
accepted
delineations
of concepts in
the trade of
psychology.
Rohracher [1]
has defined in
1969 (and to
my knowledge,
no one has
disputed this
wording):
“Intelligence
is the degree
of efficiency
[of the CNS]
while solving
new problems.”</p><p class="">What you
refer to is
subsumed
variously
under:
creativity,
alertness,
curiosity,
vitality,
spontaneity. </p><p class="">There is
consensus in
the
epistemology
of psychology
that there can
exist no
final,
conclusive,
all-encompassing
theory of
personality
(in which
intelligence
and
adaptability/curiosity
would or would
not be
separated as
concepts),
because if
such an
ultimate,
final, true
theory of
personality
would exist,
that
assumption
would negate
the axiomatic
rule that one
can always
learn
something new,
at least about
himself. There
is, by
definition, no
end to
introspection
and
philosophy.
One can always
come up with a
new theory of
personality
and one cannot
rule out that
a new theory
of personality
would be more
reasonable,
truer, more
conclusive
than anything
that has
existed
before.</p><p class="">Psychologists
see theories
about mind and
soul in the
same way
believers see
their God. It
is impossible
to recognize
all features
of God, let
alone to
insist that
one has a
correct
reading.</p><p class="">So, if you
decide not to
distinguish
between
efficiency of
solving new
problems and
ability and
tendency
towards
finding new
problems to
solve, you are
free to do so.
Established
use of words
splits the two
personality
traits.</p><p class="">I have
prepared a
statement
about the key
word
“otherwise”.
The word is
needed to
scale the
efficiency of
mental
processes
while solving
new problems
(aka
‘intelligence’)
by scaling the
diversity/similarity properties of alternatives. To be able to
efficiently
choose between
alternatives,
one needs to
have
alternatives
that are
different
among each
other. The
task is to
find such
collections of
symbols that
are
alternatives
to each other,
not by
machinations
by humans, but
as members of
a symbols
collection.
This task is
not easy to
solve while
using the
symbols set in
the
traditional,
Sumerian ways
only. One
needs to
assume that
symbols have
their own
properties, by
their nature,
immanent to
them. </p><p class="">Due to the
two-messages-per-week rule, the contribution shall come next week.</p><p class="">Karl</p><p class="">[1]
Rohracher, H.:
Einführung in
die
Psychologie,
Urban &
Schwarzenberg,
Wien 1951</p>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
Am Mi., 18.
Okt. 2023 um
12:01 Uhr
schrieb Eric
Werner <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>:
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Dear Yixin,</p><p class="">Thank you
for you
comments! <br class="">
</p><p class="">To your
point (2): The
essence of
general
intelligence
is the ability
to not only
solve an
externally
given problem,
but to be
creative and
find and
define
problems. For
example, given
a knowledge of
mathematics
and physics
and data to
generate new
mathematics
and new
insights into
the nature of
the world. <br class="">
</p><p class="">To your
point (3):
Biotechnology
and AI are
somewhat
independent
fields. AI can
help genome
research and
decoding
genomes. But
once genomes
are decoded
that
information
can be used to
construct more
general AI
models. When I
say
"architecture"
I meant the
architecture
of the human
brain encoded
in the human
genome. This
architectural
information
can be used to
guide the
structuring of
AI models be
be more potent
and more human
like. And, AI
may well help
in the process
of structuring
its future
version. That
is what I
meant by
selfreferencing.
<br class="">
</p><p class="">To the more
general point,
formalization
of social
information
can help guide
the
improvement of
AI models to
be more social
and have
greater
abilities in a
AI-robot
social
setting. <br class="">
</p><p class="">All the
best,</p><p class="">Eric <br class="">
</p>
<div class=""> On
10/18/23 9:16
AM, 钟义信 wrote:
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="">
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">Dear
Eric,</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">Thank
you for the
interesting
talk on
"Paradigm AI"
from which I
learned a lot.
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">As
a discussant,
may I propose
some of my
understanding.
Comments are
welcome. </font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">(1)
I appreciate
your idea that
saying
"Physics
paradigm PPD
does not fit
well with AI
paradigm" and
"Information
paradigm PID
is a better
fit". This is
the valuable
common basis,
between you
and me,
concerning the
PPD, PID and
AI.</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">(2)
How to define
the concept of
intelligence?
This is a very
difficult
problem. To my
own
understanding,
the following
short
statement may
serve as one
of the
candidates: <u class="">Intelligence
is the ability
to solve
problem but
not the
ability to
find and
define
problem, the
latter of
which is one
of the
abilities for
wisdom.</u></font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><u class=""><br class="">
</u></font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">(3)
The paradigm
for AI can be
used as the
paradigm for
bio-technology
with certain
simplification
and
specialization.
This judgement
is not based
on their
"structure/architecture",
but based on
their
"information
function" -
which is the
basic function
in both AI and
biotechnology,
that is to
seek
opportunity
for "living
(or solving
problem)" and
to avoid the
"danger (or
failing to
problem
solving)".</font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">Once
again,
comments and
criticisms are
most welcome.</font>
</div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class=""><br class="">
</font> </div>
<div class=""> <font size="4" face="Times
New Roman" class="">Best
regards,</font>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="font-size: 14px; font-family: verdana;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0px;padding:0px 10px 0px 15px;border-right-width:1px;border-right-style:solid;border-right-color:rgb(222,222,222)" class="">
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left" class=""> <img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn" class=""> </div>
</div>
<div style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:rgb(160,160,160)" class="">
<h4 style="margin: 0px; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 28px;" class="">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div class=""> AI
School, BUPT </div>
<div class=""> Beijing
100876, China
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px; line-height: 22px; color: rgb(160, 160, 160);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div style="" class="">
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:"arial narrow";padding:2px 0px" class="">
------------------ Original ------------------ </div>
<div style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(239,239,239);padding:8px" class="">
<div class=""> <b class="">From:
</b> "Eric
Werner" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
</div>
<div class=""> <b class="">Date:
</b> Tue, Oct
17, 2023 02:32
AM </div>
<div class=""> <b class="">To:
</b> "fis" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class=""><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
</div>
<div class=""> <b class="">Subject:
</b> [Fis]
Paradigm AI </div>
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><p class="">Here are
some brief
thoughts on
Paradigms and
AI by I
presume was
written by
Yixin Zhong
since I cannot
read Chinese.
<br class="">
</p>
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<h1 class="">Paradigm
AI</h1>
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">I agree
that the
physics
paradigm PPD
doesn’t fit
well with the
AI paradigm,
and that the
information
paradigm PID
is a better
fit</li>
<li class="">Artificial
intelligence
systems, don’t
necessarily
learn from
human beings.
In
unsupervised
learning they
learn from
data and not
from humans.</li>
<li class="">The
problem, and
becomes really
how to define
what
intelligence
is: Which of
the following
is it?<br class="">
</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Rational
inference</li>
<li class="">Summarizing
large amounts
of text and
data</li>
<li class="">Making new
predictions
based on
scientific
theories and
available data</li>
<li class="">Developing
new theories
that explain
the data in
the more
succinct way,
and making new
predictions</li>
<li class="">Developing
new
technologies
independently
of human input</li>
<li class="">Planning
and executing
the actions
and intentions
of a robot</li>
<li class="">Having
social
intelligence</li>
<li class="">Being
cooperative
with a human
being in
achieving a
task </li>
<li class="">Interrelating
two
discipline,
such as
physics and
mathematics,
to make new
discoveries</li>
<li class="">Understanding,
genomes in the
way that human
beings cannot</li>
<li class="">Designing
new organisms
by designing
their genomes</li>
</ul>
<li class="">I agree
with the
language of a
new paradigm,
such as
artificial
intelligence
will develop
slowly step by
step in
conjunction
with its use
-both
conceptually
and
experimentally
.</li>
<li class="">In a new
paradigm
entire new
language is
created as a
paradigm is
developed</li>
<li class="">The
language
evolves in
concert with a
new ontology
suggested by
the paradigm</li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">It is an
ontology of
objects,
technologies,
actions, and
strategies</li>
</ul>
<li class="">What will
be
particularly
interesting,
is the <b class=""><font size="5" class="">linking
of the
paradigm of
artificial
intelligence
with the
paradigm of
biotechnology</font></b></li>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Biotechnology
and AI will
truly link the
human brain
with the
artificial
brain</li>
<li class="">The genome
of the natural
brain will be
reflected in
the
architecture
of the
artificial
brain</li>
<li class="">Hence by
using AI to
decode the
genome of the
natural brain,
it will be
self-reflected
in the design
of the
developing
artificial
brain </li>
<li class="">This will
bring
unprecedented
social and
rational
functionality
to the
artificial
brain </li>
<li class="">Note that
the
biotech-genome
paradigm also
is founded on
the
information
paradigm.<br class="">
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
</div><p class="">Thank you
Yixin Zhong
for your input
and
emphasizing
the intimate
relationship
of information
and AI
paradigms. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Best
wishes,</p><p class="">Eric <br class="">
</p>
<div class=""> -- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric
Werner <br class="">
Oxford
Advanced
Research
Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TIIx5Wtklq6f08o-lkfpzmVltSrC8Oy2oMP7tcMZsYwSN5x_BDJBF1vtN9DOTbE6BXCYP2mXThgkBtz8Hin4ZKg$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class=""></fieldset>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> -- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric
Werner <br class="">
Oxford
Advanced
Research
Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S48dgtLY-v427YBnRO4ovcOPfYmIyRg2qFfQ_Vw-sWoIjfzS8ZWpLpRilKkBtXqBqXyrkHUwwWHOZ6wdhD823UM$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i> </div>
</div>
_______________________________________________ <br class="">
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list <br class="">
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<br class="">
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<br class="">
---------- <br class="">
INFORMACIÓN
SOBRE
PROTECCIÓN DE
DATOS DE
CARÁCTER
PERSONAL <br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe
este correo
por pertenecer
a una lista de
correo
gestionada por
la Universidad
de Zaragoza. <br class="">
Puede
encontrar toda
la información
sobre como
tratamos sus
datos en el
siguiente
enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br class="">
Recuerde que
si está
suscrito a una
lista
voluntaria Ud.
puede darse de
baja desde la
propia
aplicación en
el momento en
que lo desee.
<br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br class="">
---------- <br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> -- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric
Werner <br class="">
Oxford
Advanced
Research
Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VvOfZm0CWjVPM7xYKVUO5vkDvx9MusQMRPpMkuycNvECTx_JKVuphYgtiPWoWJVdjig7Zmh4qyxchxc_Dlf37Ok$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i> </div>
</div>
_______________________________________________ <br class="">
Fis mailing
list <br class="">
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class=""></fieldset>
<pre class="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
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----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> -- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric Werner <br class="">
Oxford Advanced
Research Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tp73mvJuJUMNK3m6xXu_VUCsW-Poi0CFq_XnfNau9_R6RtJ9H97j8KIdmljPVTZ5fp9ugRtDL4oKZu_gxjwG2pY$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> -- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric Werner <br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research
Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!ULTdPadjetHQaFjDWHSRq3NTGl5cum0ToYkM5RPNPmDlsElQtx0BarbTaNClj9Gs3pK5uLq7CNAT1ZjBQdOJxfo$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i> </div>
</div>
</div>
<u class=""></u> </div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> -- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric Werner <br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U6Z9SjSPXXPQE_dYNztjOD0PIXKI7DKT8_nzn-liWAXn4G_QUg1i4fvKHGFzwuH94uJe_nj6fPVMUFlws1cYm38$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i> </div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class=""></fieldset>
<pre class="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> -- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric Werner <br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RgLnjNz9O07xrTXKPte-Q52ZaNv5bSe2q0kcXcqJTGMt5OUshd6kdTKqnSVj2xb1GscdC55j-7nvyPF4m2g9ZEw$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i> </div>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">-- <br class="">
<i class=""> Dr. Eric Werner <br class="">
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br class="">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RceHxVnwcS1HKa4o1K3O2F3CWJTH4hKFZwUBkMrZcO5zelqA1w1gSqqL8f3tyAsY8lI24FG7RRGsI42DlRjSZNs$" target="_blank" class="">https://oarf.org</a> <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</i></div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class=""></fieldset>
<pre class="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">
----------<br class="">
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br class="">
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
----------<br class="">
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<br class="">----------<br class="">INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas<br class="">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<br class="">http://listas.unizar.es<br class="">----------<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>