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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I cannot respond in length to Mark, as
it would be too complex. My limited view & experience is that
that parallel to the computer revolution a generation ago, there
are less scholars and the level of scholarship is lower,
multidisciplinarity is more and more technical (computer &
data oriented almost everywhere), less deep-thinking books are
published, and even the public in general looks more captured and
tense under the impact of all the screens around thir daily lives.
The reason (if there is an underlying common reason?) maybe it is
the"social information" new regime... the historical parallel with
the multiple changes & disturbs after the book revolution of
15-16th century is striking. One is reminded McLuhan on the
psychological and cognitive impacts of new media.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And now a series of advanced AI systems
join the panorama. In general most of us welcome it and, as Yixin
has put, it could be accompanied (should be) by a paradigm
revolution. We have discussed on how that new paradigm should be
oriented, and personally I have emphasized the need to connect
with "natural intelligence" --the origin of all intelligence on
Earth. And, interestingly, Eric has emphasized the need to reflect
in these new LLMSs or LMBS the architecture of the human social
brain so to make them really cooperative systems. I have no space
to include the views & criticisms by Plamen, Krassimir, Karl,
Marcus, et al. On the one side, I see that these systems have the
capability to achieve far more knowledge and even "wisdom" than
any human being or groups of (most discussants see wisdom as
"binary" and exclusively human, but I already gave my reasons
against that). On the other side, it is obvious that this growing
capability of processing and acting is causing chills &
fears... See the following news agency note (received courtesy
from Malcolm Dean): <br>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-risks-uk-summit-regulation-ce89e842a176e55e46b6cc493cd515a5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VxvqVh_7CZEQDbazwiq9Blw55q6xEAiScVbF-5oKYfpeN4UktJwu_G9ZawMDI2A_xvAxOxOooV8rGI7ucLZwizgbR83I$">https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-risks-uk-summit-regulation-ce89e842a176e55e46b6cc493cd515a5</a><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><font
face="times new roman, serif">AP News, 31 October 2023</font></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><b><font
face="times new roman, serif">Cutting-edge AI raises fears
about risks to humanity. Are tech and political leaders
doing enough?<br>
</font></b></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><font
face="times new roman, serif">by Kelvin Chan <br>
<br>
LONDON (AP) — Chatbots like ChatGPT wowed the world with their
ability to write speeches, plan vacations or hold a
conversation as good as or arguably even better than humans
do, thanks to cutting-edge artificial intelligence systems.
Now, frontier AI has become the latest buzzword as concerns
grow that the emerging technology has capabilities that could
endanger humanity.<br>
<br>
Everyone from the British government to top researchers and
even major AI companies themselves are raising the alarm about
frontier AI’s as-yet-unknown dangers and calling for
safeguards to protect people from its existential threats. ...</font></div>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I wonder, maybe what do we fear is
wisdom itself??</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">All the best,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 31/10/2023 a las 13:14, Mark Johnson
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEzq2RS=ZvLzcQ94b97a9vSfrLnjpdWONJ_Yk7VfpKTYw_9SWw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Pedro, all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your comment here is interesting: "Nevertheless,
in our times whatever wisdom might be around remains
buried under growing heaps of specialized, mostly
technological knowledge."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is a key question which arises from this:
Do we think that wisdom is separable from the 'heaps
of specialized technical knowledge'? Can a surgeon
act wisely if they don't know how to use a scalpel?
Is it important to know and do what we are talking
about at some depth of experience? I suspect so. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So perhaps the problem is the "burying". What/who
performs the burial? Education must be the first
culprit there - what do we do about it? There's
nothing stopping people gaining deeper specialised
knowledge if they are so-motivated. But there is a
lot that stops us making connections between deep
practice, thought and judgement. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wittgenstein made a similar comment in his
discussion on aesthetics (here: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_and_Conversations_on_Aesthetics,_Psychology,_and_Religious_Belief__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VxvqVh_7CZEQDbazwiq9Blw55q6xEAiScVbF-5oKYfpeN4UktJwu_G9ZawMDI2A_xvAxOxOooV8rGI7ucLZwi8VVnRSa$" moz-do-not-send="true">Lectures and Conversations
on Aesthetics, Psychology, and Religious Belief -
Wikipedia</a>): </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span
style="color:rgb(102,102,102);font-family:"Trebuchet
MS",Trebuchet,Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:13.2px">When we make an
aesthetic judgement about a thing, we do not just
gape at it and say: "Oh! How marvellous!" We
distinguish between a person who knows what he is
talking about and a person who doesn't. If a
person is to admire English poetry, he must know
English. Suppose that a Russian who doesn't know
English is overwhelmed by a sonnet admitted to be
good. We would say that he does not know what is
in it. In music this is more pronounced. Suppose
there is a person who admires and enjoys what is
admitted to be good but can't remember the
simplest tunes, doesn't know when the bass comes
in, etc. We say he hasn't seen what's in it. We
use the phrase 'A man is musical' not so as to
call a man musical if he says "Ah!" when a piece
of music is played, any more than we call a dog
musical if it wags its tail when music is played.</span> </blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>If there is a paradigm shift that is required, it
is an epistemological shift that is in this space. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mark</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 at
11:26, Pedro C. Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear Chen and FIS colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Welcome to the list. Your comments on the "main
body" are interesting. They look close to the
(Taoist?) tradition of "<i>chi flow</i>" in the body.
The interrelation between the<i> li </i>and the <i>chi</i>
in the organism looks quite enigmatic (say,
information flow vs. energy flow: time ago I published
about that from the point of view of cellular gauge
symmetry). This interesting "main body" theme may also
be connected with the discussions on consciousness...
Nevertheless, I fail to see the relationship with
"wisdom". Most parties in this list are discussing
about wisdom from a "realist stance" (as something
clearly delimited in the real world) while I adopt a
"nominalist" position: it represents nothing but a
useful artificial convention about an unassailable
phenomenon. Nevertheless, in our times whatever wisdom
might be around remains buried under growing heaps of
specialized, mostly technological knowledge. Taking
its evanescent presence as a crucial distinction
between humans and the new AI systems does not look
very "wise"... If we provide full Autonomy and maybe
some form of embodiment (robotic?) to these systems,
well, things could be pretty problematic, far beyond
the realistic or nominalist stance around wisdom.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BY THE WAY, THERE ARE AT LEAST 6 MESSAGES BLOCKED
BY THE SERVER DUE TO THEIR EXCESSIVE LENGTH, BEYOND
THE LIMIT OF 300 K. SO DIFFICULT IS CLEANING THE
"TAIL" OF PREVIOUS MESSAGES (OR AT LEAST A PART OF
THEM)???? ADMIRABLE STUBBORNNESS OF SOME FIS
COLLEAGUES!</div>
<div>--------------------------------------------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 30/10/2023 a las 2:13, shda1 escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="line-height:1.7;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Arial">
<p style="margin:0px"><span
style="font-family:monospace">Dear everyone, </span></p>
<div><font face="monospace"><span>Sorry! I
encountered a formatting error in my reply
yesterday and will resend it today.</span></font></div>
<div><font face="monospace"><span><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:monospace">I am
delighted that everyone can discuss wisdom from
artificial intelligence. Here, I propose a more
basic and core concept about wisdom - the main
body, which is the fundamental concept of
wisdom.</span></div>
<span style="font-family:monospace"> The main body,
also known as the main body program, is a
high-level program combination of energy. The the
main body needs to combine with the organism in
order to exist and form a main body existence.
Main body existence is an existence with autonomy
and initiative, and the extension of main body is
greater than that of the living body. The living
body is only a common type of main body existence.
AI has no main body, so no matter how powerful it
may be, it does not belong to the main body
existence and can only be an appendage of the
living body. So, is there a possibility that AI
will also break through itself and gain the main
body? Never possible! The main body is a product
of natural evolution in the universe, which humans
cannot manufacture and can only use reasonably.
Chen Wang Visiting Professor at SEGD University
New Civilization International Cooperation
Organization</span>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<pre>At 2023-10-29 21:39:54, "" <a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-request@listas.unizar.es></a> wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
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> 1. PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Plamen)
> 2. Re: PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Eric Werner)
> 3. Re: PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:26:22 +0100
>From: Plamen <a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com></a>
>To: fis <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
>Subject: [Fis] PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?.
>Message-ID: <a href="mailto:8BA2DCA1-27E6-4F2D-BA86-086716AA2AED@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><8BA2DCA1-27E6-4F2D-BA86-086716AA2AED@gmail.com></a>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$</a>
>
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:16:40 +0100
>From: Eric Werner <a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
>To: Plamen <a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com></a>, fis <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
>Subject: Re: [Fis] PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?.
>Message-ID: <a href="mailto:e6736449-2532-442e-b6d9-32e19024eafc@oarf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><e6736449-2532-442e-b6d9-32e19024eafc@oarf.org></a>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
>Dear Plamen,
>
>Fully agree that such systems can have bias and that this bias can
>infect humans. However, one person's bias is another's truth. All the
>experiment showed was the heritability of bias from AI system to human.?
>That is a problem.
>
>However, in a political setting one would have to very cautious when
>larger corporations and governments start to determine what is bias and
>what is not. '
>
>How to avoid "bias" will I think be an impossible task.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Eric
>
>On 10/29/23 1:26 PM, Plamen wrote:
>> <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$</a>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
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<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Faculty of
Biology, Medicine and Health</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of
Manchester</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Science
Education</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Copenhagen</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Eye and
Vision Science (honorary)</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Liverpool</div>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
Blog: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VxvqVh_7CZEQDbazwiq9Blw55q6xEAiScVbF-5oKYfpeN4UktJwu_G9ZawMDI2A_xvAxOxOooV8rGI7ucLZwiyS1gxN0$" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a></div>
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