<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear Eric and dear All,</font></div><div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">First of all, I would like to give my hearty thanks to Eric for his very clearly explanations on his considerations on Wisdom. This is valuable contribution to the discussion.</font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><br></font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">What I would like to say is that wisdom is directly related to the goal/objective. <u>No goal means no wisdom</u>. All kinds of living beings have their goal of "seeking living and avoid danger". Therefore they have certain levels of wisdom, among which humans have wisdom with highest level because they have the most complex goal of "living and development".</font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><br></font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">Machine like AI is non-living beings and hence hve no goal of its own. Thus <u>machine, like AI, is unable to have wisdom</u>.</font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><br></font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><u>But AI is able to have intelligence</u> because any AI system can have "problem to be solved, goal for problem solving, and seed knowledge" given by human wisdom.</font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><br></font></div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="4">I wonder if you agree or not. Comments are valuable.</font></div><div><br></div><div><sign signid="99"><div><div style="color:#909090;font-family:Arial Narrow;font-size:12px"></div></div><div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Verdana;color:#000;" class="signRealArea">
<div style="overflow:hidden;"><div class="l_box" style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0;padding:0 10px 0 15px;border-right:1px solid #dedede;"><div class="logo" style="max-height: 150px;overflow: hidden;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left;"><br></div><div class="logo" style="max-height: 150px;overflow: hidden;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left;"><br></div><div class="logo" style="max-height: 150px;overflow: hidden;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left;"><img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn" onerror=""></div></div><div class="c_detail" style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0;zoom:1;"><h4 class="name" style="margin:0;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:#000;zoom:1;">Prof. Yixin ZHONG</h4><div>AI School, BUPT</div><div>Beijing 100876, China</div><p class="department" style="margin:0;"><br></p><p class="phone" style="margin:0;"></p><p class="addr" style="margin:0;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0;"><br></p></div></div>
</div></sign></div><div> </div><div><includetail><div> </div><div> </div><div style="font:Verdana normal 14px;color:#000;"><div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow;padding:2px 0 2px 0;">------------------ Original ------------------</div><div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px;background:#efefef;padding:8px;"><div id="menu_sender"><b>From: </b> "Dr. Eric Werner"<evwerner@gmail.com>;</div><div><b>Date: </b> Sat, Oct 28, 2023 02:20 PM</div><div><b>To: </b> "Joeseph Brenner"<joe.brenner@bluewin.ch>; <wbr></div><div><b>Cc: </b> "Eric Werner"<eric.werner@oarf.org>; "钟义信"<zyx@bupt.edu.cn>; "fis"<fis@listas.unizar.es>; <wbr></div><div><b>Subject: </b> Re: [Fis] 回复:Re: Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence. Universal contextual contradictory wisdom</div></div><div> </div><div style="position:relative;"><div id="tmpcontent_res"></div>Hi Joe and dear All,<div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for your comments. For me Wisdom in humans accumulates as we gain experience by living life or by reading. When people seek wise advice it is often on how to deal with a difficult situation or making a decision. Such advice has consequences for what we do, how we live our lives, what decisions and actions we take. </div><div><br></div><div>When I say <b>wisdom is relative</b> I mean that different people will give different advice. </div><div><br></div><div>And, one wise person’s advice can <b>contradict</b> another wise person’s advice. The interests of the societal context will influence what is considered wise advice. So different societies will give contradictory wise advice on culturally and politically loaded themes. </div><div><br></div><div>As for <b>Realpolitik</b> I am talking about advice in a political context where the issue is about power or the division of resources. Unfortunately, the current wars illustrate all to well that political wisdom’s relativity and contradictory nature. Here emotions overpower wisdom when seen from an external observer’s perspective. However, when inside the war zone wise advice may be very different for the attacker and the attacked. </div><div><br></div><div>This relativity and contradictory nature of wisdom in actual past and living societies, inclines me to conclude that <b>there is no fully absolute wisdom </b>that hovers like a God above us poor mortals. </div><div><br></div><div>However, a Meta-AI system (one that can formulate problems and ask new questions and not just solve a given problem) may be trained to give good wise advice in a given societal context. </div><div>This is what I meant: Given the relativity and contradictory nature of wisdom these relative units of wisdom can be learned by an LLM. Meta-AI with reasoning may be needed to escape the stringent nature of LLM training. </div><div><br></div><div>Therefore, there is no compelling reason to believe that a Universal Wise Meta-AI system could not be created that gives <b>wise advice in virtually all known human conditions.</b> It’s advice will be <b>context relative and possibly be contradictory</b> to what is advised in another context. </div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div>Eric</div><div><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Oct 27, 2023, at 6:02 PM, joe.brenner@bluewin.ch wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><font size="3">Dear All,</font><div><font size="3"><br></font><div><font size="3">In this note, Eric states that AI models can contain all of human wisdom - including conflicting wisdom.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">I believe this characterization is circular, and the subsequent discussion fails to take into account what is universal in human beings. At the (lower) level of <i>Realpolitik</i>, I agree with Eric's statement about the consequences of limited resources, but we are far here from anything like wisdom.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">Even the relation of contradiction (that I have written a lot about) may be too primitive when dealing with aspects of existence. It is thus not "binary" to say that there are exclusively human qualities, one of them being the ability to make errors that are not a consequence of a program.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">Thank you and best wishes.</font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">Joseph <br></font><blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">----Original Message----<br>From : eric.werner@oarf.org<br>Date : 27/10/2023 - 12:36 (E)<br>To : zyx@bupt.edu.cn<br>Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es, joe.brenner@bluewin.ch<br>Subject : Re: [Fis] 回复:Re: Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence<br><br><p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>As you know from my different responses regarding Wisdom and Meta-AI (Artificial Wisdom) I am of a rather split opinion: </p>
<p>On the one hand, the poetic emotional side of me sees the necessary inclusion of an ethics of fairness for all living creatures. I am skeptical, like you, that AI can achieve this consistently. I am worried about the ramifications of using AI systems in a military-governmental decision making process. <br></p>
<p>On the other hand, it may well come about that Meta-AI is possible. Such a system poses questions, creates new problems that it then solves. Such a Meta-AI system could rapidly explore different combinations of explicit and implicit theoretical assumptions. Leading to new theories about nature and the world. It could then propose new experiments that confirm or disconfirm its theory or hypotheses. It could see long range relationships, logical, mathematical in different specialized theories or mental frameworks. Meta-AI is one of the founding cornerstones of General AI. It presupposes that reasoning and not just parroting can be learned in some way. <br></p>
<p>Some more thoughts on Wisdom: <br></p>
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<div>
<h1>Human wisdom is distributed and contradictory<br></h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li><b>AI models can contain all of human wisdom </b>- including conflicting Wisdom<br></li>
<li><b>Conflicting Wisdom:</b></li>
<ul>
<li>One societies Wisdom may be another societies doom<br></li>
</ul>
<li><b>Realpolitik of human wisdom</b></li>
<ul>
<li>As soon as limited resources, come in we get conflict</li>
</ul>
<li><b>Imagine 10 people </b>on the land that supports 10 people if they all share what they find among the other 10</li>
<ul>
<li>If they are greedy, it reduces the population</li>
<li>It depends on if they really need 10 to find the food for 10. If five are sufficient to survive on the same land with less stress, then there’s a temptation to get rid of or disadvange the other five</li>
<li>Increase and search or intelligence algorithms whether a genetic or soft can lead to more resource findings</li>
<li>Sharing knowledge leads to greater distributed, productivity and more can join the community</li>
</ul>
<li>T<b>he life and death struggle</b></li>
<ul>
<li>Imagine another group of 10 comes in to the same area that supports only 10. Then we get conflict. They may cooperate but half have to die because of limited resources.</li>
<li>Same holds for university positions</li>
<li>Same holds for a limited resources in well-to-do societies versus less able societies</li>
<li>Taking advantage of one side's ability against the other</li>
</ul>
<li><b>Power Creates Laws to Perpetuate Power </b><br></li>
<ul>
<li>Speech is regulated, prevent thought and action that may lead to change of the status quo of power</li>
<li>Servants must be servile <br></li>
<li>Those in power must pretend to be generous to the extent that the servant does not rebel</li>
<li>The good master (wants to be seen as Wise, knowing what is good for the underlings)<br></li>
<li>The parasite must not kill its host, unless or until it can jump to another host</li>
<li>A parasite of a parasite leads to a hierarchy of parasites <br></li>
</ul>
<li>L<b>imited Resources Disturb the Ideal of Fairness and Absolute Wisdom</b><br></li>
<ul>
<li>As soon as limited resources come into play the ideal no longer works</li>
<li>The group with more power in the given environment can win the resources</li>
<li>With limited resources, there can be no compromise after a certain point of sharing</li>
</ul>
</ul> Thus my ambivalence concerning Wisdom.
</div>
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Best wishes,
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Eric
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<p></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
On 10/25/23 2:12 PM, 钟义信 wrote:
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
Dear Eric,
</div>
<div>
<br>
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<div>
There have many mysteries remained in wisdom. This is one of the reasons that the concept of AI does not involve wisdom and therefore AI is able to solve problem but is unable to define problem.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Wisdom is creative in nature but AI is not. It is my belief that humans can build up AI but cannot build up AW (artificial wisdom).
</div>
<div>
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</div>
<div>
Wisdom can only be owned by humans but not by any machines. Do you think so? Please give comments on the point.
</div>
<div>
<br>
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Best regards,
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Yixin
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<br> ----------
<br>
<p>该邮件从移动设备发送<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></p>
<br>
<br> --------------原始邮件--------------
<br> 发件人："Eric Werner "
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
<br> 发送时间：2023年10月25日(星期三) 晚上7:00
<br> 收件人："钟义信"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;
<br> 抄送："Joeseph Brenner "
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><joe.brenner@bluewin.ch></a>;"fis "
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
<br> 主题：Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence
<br> -----------------------------------
<br>
</div>
<div class="mail_content">
<div>
Dear Yixin,
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<span style="font-size: 19.0px;"><b>The Relativity and Realpolitik of Human Wisdom:</b></span>
</div>
<div>
<span style="font-size: 19.0px;"><b><br></b></span>
</div>
<div>
Once we relativize Wisdom to human beings and excluded from artificial intelligent systems then wisdom will vary over different human beings. A grandmother may have a different kind of wisdom then a grandfather. It will vary in different cultures.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Another problem is that wisdom can be for the good of all or for the good of a few if it’s restricted or if it’s malevolent.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
“Knowing how” is a kind of strategic wisdom that can be transferred from one person to another or from a AI model to another AI model, robot, or human.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
To set the boundary between what is beneficial for all human beings may and what is not may in itself create an inherent contradiction. This is especially so if there is conflict between groups of humans or animals or even AI systems.
<br>
<br> It may be that a met-AI system may be better at differentiating in a neutral way between human needs because of its inherent nonhuman neutrality. This of course, has its problems as well. Indeed the very creation of the AI model may be set with bias, as is seen in the conflicts between leftist and rightist AI models. Determining neutrality may be impossible in a social setting of diverse beliefs.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
What may be perceived as good for one group of humans may be disastrous for another group of human beings. This is seen clearly in the relationship between humans and animals where what is good for humans is not always good for say a pig or a cow or a duck or a chicken.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Thus even the notion of being good for all human beings maybe beset with problems that are potentially insurmountable especially in the political world.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So that is the realpolitik and relativity of human wisdom.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Best wishes,
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Eric
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<div>
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</div>
<div>
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<div dir="ltr">
Sent from my iPad
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<div dir="ltr">
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<blockquote type="cite">
On Oct 25, 2023, at 12:25 PM, 钟义信
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a> wrote:
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</blockquote>
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<blockquote type="cite">
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Dear Joe, Eric, and colleagues,
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
For the simplity of my reply I just emphase one point that is, all study carried out by humans should be based on human centered stand. Otherwise, humans' research leads to extinguish humans themself. That would be meaningless.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Best regards,
<br>
<br> ----------
<br>
<p>该邮件从移动设备发送<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></p>
<br>
<br> --------------原始邮件--------------
<br> 发件人："Joeseph Brenner "
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><joe.brenner@bluewin.ch></a>;
<br> 发送时间：2023年10月25日(星期三) 下午5:17
<br> 收件人："Eric Werner"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;"钟义信"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;"fis"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
<br> 主题：Re: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence
<br> -----------------------------------
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<div class="mail_content">
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<font size="3">Dear Yixin, Dear Eric,</font>
<div>
<font size="3"><br></font>
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<div>
<font size="3">I very much welcome your complexification of the notion of wisdom/intelligence. First of all, it eliminates the flavor of omnipotence which accompanies some discourse on Artificial Intelligence.</font>
</div>
<div>
<font size="3"><br></font>
</div>
<div>
<font size="3">One now needs to define further the characteristics of Human Centered Wisdom (what Yixin has been talking about all along) so that the same mistakes are not made in discussing Artificial Human Centered Wisdom.</font>
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<div>
<font size="3"><br></font>
</div>
<div>
<font size="3">My suggestion would be to look at the kinds of logic ("Eastern" or "Western") that are most applicable to/in the two domains. Are we sure, however, that all our objectives can be achieved by reference to problem solving. Of course, living with unsolved problems simply carries out an additional iteration or recursion step, but it might be worthwhile if this were recognized explicitly.</font>
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<font size="3"><br></font>
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<div>
<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman";font-size: large;">Eric concludes "It seems AHCW is more restrictive than AMI". I agree, but suggest it should be said that AHCW is also more restrictive than HCW.</span>
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<div>
<font size="3"><br></font>
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<font size="3">Best wishes,</font>
</div>
<div>
<font size="3">Joseph <br></font>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0.0px;margin-left: 15.0px;">
----Original Message----
<br> From :
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue">eric.werner@oarf.org</a>
<br> Date : 24/10/2023 - 10:54 (E)
<br> To :
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue">zyx@bupt.edu.cn</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<br> Subject : Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence
<br>
<br>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Just had some clarifying thoughts while taking a shower (embodied intelligence 😉)</p>
<p>You state: "<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the context of technical study, wisdom means the ability to define the problem, which should be good for all humans if solved, and intelligence means the ability to solve the problem defined by wisdom." <br></font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">To clarify:</font></p>
<ol>
<li><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> Let me define the ability to define the problem as <b>Meta-Intelligence MI<br><br></b></font></li>
<li><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">And define </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">ability to define the problem, which should be<b> good for all humans</b> if solved, as <b>Human-Centered-Wisdom </b></font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">HCW</font><br><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><b><br></b></font></li>
<li>Define <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><b> intelligence</b> as the ability to solve the problem defined by Meta-Intelligence or Human-Centered-Wisdom <br></font></li>
</ol>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Under these definitions, Artificial Human Centered Wisdom AHCW will be a different challenge than Artificial Meta Intelligence AMI <br></font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Given the right technology AMI may well be achievable and may give different answers than Artificial Human Centered Wisdom, if the latter is even achievable.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I think this clarifies the differences in understanding of wisdom and the capacity to intelligently solve the problems posed by the different types of Wisdom. It seems AHCW is more restritive than AMI. <br></font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best wishes,</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Eric <br></font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
On 10/24/23 9:26 AM, Eric Werner wrote:
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<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Dear Yixin, <br></p>
<p>I am getting a better understanding of what you mean by wisdom. Thank you for your patience! <br></p>
<p>This morning I had some thoughts described below. <br></p>
<p>You state: "<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the context of technical study, wisdom means the ability to define the problem, which should be good for all humans if solved, and intelligence means the ability to solve the problem defined by wisdom." <br></font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In mathematics and other sciences, there is the difference between proving theorems and discovering a theorem. Many bright mathematicians make their name by proving theorems. Others like Gödel in his proof of the incompleteness theorem (inherent limits of the axiomatic method) linked together very different concepts-methods (Cantor's diagonal method and </font><span style="color: rgb(232,234,237);font-family: "Google Sans" , arial , sans-serif;font-style: normal;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;font-weight: 400;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: left;text-indent: 0.0px;text-transform: none;word-spacing: 0.0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0.0px;white-space: normal;background-color: rgb(32,33,36);text-decoration-thickness: initial;text-decoration-style: initial;text-decoration-color: initial;display: inline;float: none;">arithmetization</span><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">) to come up with a wonderful result. Proving is commonplace compared to coming up with a concept. <br></font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Missing from the parrot-like LLMs is true reasoning and questioning. <br></font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">However, I am not convinced that an artificial intelligent-rational system would not be able to formulate its own questions, create new concepts and new method of solving its own conundrums. <br></font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Here are the other earlier thoughts of this morning:</font></p>
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<div>
<h1>Can wisdom be learned?</h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Artificial wisdom AW</li>
<li>Social wisdom SW</li>
<li>Artificial Social Wisdom ASW</li>
<li>Embodied AI, Embodied AW</li>
<li>Artificial Ethics AE</li>
<li>Human wisdom HW as generated by experience<br></li>
<ul>
<li>Rare </li>
<li>There but for the grace of God go I</li>
<li>We often cannot understand someone until are in their shoes- experience their situation </li>
<li>Examples: Growing old, living in a different country or culture or region, learning or knowing a different subject, being in a war zone </li>
<li>You have to know two or more subjects to interrelate them </li>
</ul>
<li>Artificial rationality AR</li>
<li>Understanding requires</li>
<ul>
<li>Information </li>
<ul>
<li>State </li>
<li>Intention-Strategic<br></li>
<li>Value - Emotional Info<br></li>
</ul>
<li>Operators </li>
<ul>
<li>Transform information </li>
<li>This gives the dynamics to rational thought<br></li>
</ul>
<li>Ability or capacities </li>
<li>Intelligence </li>
<ul>
<li>Circular?? Rational inference</li>
<li>Questioning and reasoning in self dialogue<br></li>
</ul>
<li>Can intelligence be learned?</li>
<ul>
<li>Seems to require basic competencies-capacities<br></li>
<li>Reasoning </li>
<li>Social </li>
<li>Emotional </li>
<li>Wisdom (circular)</li>
</ul>
<li>How organized is the brain?</li>
<ul>
<li>Inherent competencies </li>
<li>Modular capacities of the brain<br></li>
<ul>
<li>Linguistic, visual, auditory, semantic, pragmatic, motor<br></li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Wisdom Requires </li>
<ul>
<li>Experience</li>
<li>Capacities </li>
<li>Reasoning </li>
<ul>
<li>Dynamic</li>
<li>Self reflection </li>
</ul>
</ul>
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<p>Hope this clarifies my thoughts somewhat. </p>
<p>In summary, I am inclined to view the possibility of Artificial Wisdom AW as a very real possibility. It is an open question whether the Parrot-Like-LLMs will ever achieve AW, but a hybrid might. </p>
<p>Kind regards,</p>
<p>Eric<br></p>
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On 10/24/23 3:58 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I am also very worried about the military uses of AI. This is an issue on technical ethics and needs the strong cooperation between all governments. </font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">We, as scientists and professors, have the responsibility to promote the study of technical ethics in AI. At the same time, we have to pay more attentions to the technical study of AI itself.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I agree with you on the characters of wisdom: fairness, kindness, love, for all humans, for all life, and, all in all, for living and developments of all people.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the context of technical study, wisdom means the ability to define the problem, which should be good for all humans if solved, and intelligence means the ability to solve the problem defined by wisdom.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Keeping the difference between wisdom and intelligence mentioned above, it is believed that intelligence can be simulated by machine whereas wisdom cannot be simulated by machine. In other word, <u>AI cannot be creative in the meaning of unable to define the problem good for all humans in solved</u>. I wonder if you agree or not.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best regards,</font>
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<h4 class="name" style="margin: 0;font-size: 14.0px;font-weight: bold;line-height: 28.0px;color: rgb(0,0,0);zoom: 1;">Prof. Yixin ZHONG</h4>
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Beijing 100876, China
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<b>From: </b> "Eric Werner"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
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<b>Date: </b> Mon, Oct 23, 2023 05:33 PM
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<b>To: </b> "钟义信"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>; "fis"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
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<b>Subject: </b> Re: [Fis]回复： Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
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<h1><br></h1> Dear Yixin, Ma
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Thank you all for your thoughtful contributions Krassimir, Marcus, Pedro, Yixin. Thinking about wisdom and human nature and AI. Recently viewing the uses of AI in weapons systems already being designed and produced by corporations that sell to governments, made me hesitate about what we are doing. We need a deep discussion about artificial intelligence in a social industrial governmental military context.
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<h1>AI in love and war</h1>
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<i><b>We walk lightly along the edge of a deep ravine, </b></i>
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<i><b>where can be seen </b></i>
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<i><b>the results of passions played. </b></i>
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<i><b>Oh, I loved too much, </b></i>
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<i><b>and by such, by such </b></i>
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<i><b>is happiness thrown away.</b></i>
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<i><b>I had wooed not as I should</b></i>
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<i><b>a creature made of clay</b></i>
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<i><b>When the angel woos the clay </b></i>
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<i><b>he'd lose his wings<br></b></i>
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<b>at the dawning of the day</b>
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(Adapted from a poem 'On Raglan Road' by Patrick Kavanagh)
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<li>Wisdom in the wide human sense</li>
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<li>Fairness</li>
<li>Kindness</li>
<li>Love</li>
<li>For all humans </li>
<li>For all life</li>
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<li>Military uses of AI</li>
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<li>Goal directed</li>
<li>Antagonistic</li>
<li>Cooperative</li>
<li>Destructive</li>
<li>Murderous </li>
<li>Anti-human</li>
<li>Financially motivated</li>
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<li>An AI model is like a child</li>
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<li>It can be molded to the wishes of the user</li>
<li>At the same time, it’s like a mother that responds to every wish</li>
<li>It is an all knowing God</li>
<li>Connected to a robotic system, it can heal, but it can also murder</li>
<li>AI is a child of humankind</li>
<li>All too human</li>
<li>A savior and genocidal</li>
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<li>What will we do?<br></li>
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King regards,
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Eric
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Sent from my iPhone
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On 10/22/23 9:43 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true">zyx@bupt.edu.cn</a> wrote:
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Dear Eric,
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You proposed a number of points which are interesting and important Thank you very much!
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I would like to discuss at least some of them not now, but a few days later because my notebook was trouble some the day before yesterday.
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Best wished,
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Yixin
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发自我的手机
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<br> -------- 原始邮件 --------
<br> 发件人： Eric Werner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
<br> 日期： 2023年10月19日周四 傍晚5:56
<br> 收件人： 钟义信
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>, fis
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
<br> 主 题： Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
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<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Can you be more specific what you mean by "change the paradigm used in AI". It might help to give a specific example. </p>
<p>*At present AI systems certainly behave as if they are goal directed. <br></p>
<p>*AI systems appear to have wisdom in that they can propose wise courses of action</p>
<p>* What do you mean by "pure formalism"? It seems one of the powers of formalism is to understand AI and human intelligence. <br></p>
<p>* It seems AI systems exhibit human-like wisdom when they offer advice or guide the actions of a virtual assistant or self driving car. The react based on the circumstances and goals of the other, at leas to an extent. <br></p>
<p>* Why can't a machine understand human goals and purposes if it gains a model of those from human data? <br></p>
<p>* Why can't an AI system have intentions? <br></p>
<p>My overall problem is understanding your specific criticism of the present AI paradigm? This notion seems to me to need clearer definition. <br></p>
<p>How would you overcome the present AI paradigm and what specifically is different when you want to "change the paradigm used in AI"???</p>
<p>This is not a criticism it is a real question in trying to understand you. At present I just don't see the difference between the present AI paradigm and your new AI paradigm. <br></p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric <br></p>
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On 10/19/23 8:48 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear Krassimir, Dear Eric, and Dear Colleagues,</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">The discussion is going on well thanks to all your efforts.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Here is a few points I would like to mention (or re-mention).</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(1) The purpose of the "declaration on Paradigm Change in AI" is to make an appeal for <u>change the paradigm used in AI.</u> </font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(2) There may have different understanding on the concept of paradigm. However, <u>the concept of paradigm for a scientific discipline has been re-defined as the scientific world view and the associated methodology</u> because the scientific worldview and its methodology as a whole is the only factor that can determine whether a scientific discipline needs a "revolution" (Kuhn's language).</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(3) The major result of "paradigm change in AI" is <u>to change the methodology used in AI, including the principles of "pure formalism" and "divide and conquer"</u>. This is because of the fact that <u>the former principle leads to the ignoring the meaning and value and thus leads to the loss of understanding ability and explaining ability</u> while <u>the latter one leads to the loss of the general theory for AI</u>. Note that "no explaining ability" and "no general theory" are the most typical and also most concerned problems for current AI.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(4) There is <u>difference between human intelligence and human wisdom</u>. One of the functions of human wisdom is to find the to-be-solved problem which must be meaningful for human purpose of improving the living and developing. Yet, the function of human intelligence is to solve the problem defined by human wisdom. </font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(5) Human intelligence can be simulated by machine. But human wisdom cannot be simulated by machine because machine is non-living beings that has no its own purpose and cannot understand human purpose. No purpose means no wisdom.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I wonder if you agree or not. Comments are welcome!</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best regards,</font>
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AI School, BUPT
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Beijing 100876, China
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<b>From: </b> "Krassimir Markov"
<a style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><itheaiss@gmail.com></a>;
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<b>Date: </b> Thu, Oct 19, 2023 03:32 AM
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<b>To: </b> "fis"
<a style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
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<b>Subject: </b> Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12
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Dear Yixin, Eric and FIS colleagues,
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Let me present some thoughts about
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<p style="text-align: center;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;" align="center"><b>The “Intelligence” Paradigm</b></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">For those who are not familiar with the concepts of "paradigm" and "paradigm shift", I would recommend texts from Wikipedia that explain it clearly enough.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">I myself maintain a neutral position in the dispute between Popper and Kuhn regarding the development of science. Both theses have their grounds, but at different levels and stages. In fact, in this case, the law of quantitative accumulation, which leads to qualitative changes, applies. Obviously, in a number of cases the paradigm shift happens in leaps and bounds, while in others it happens smoothly and barely perceptibly.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">For example, the accumulation of sufficient observations and evidences regarding the shape of the earth required a shift to a new paradigm: from the "Earth is flat" paradigm to the "Earth is not flat" paradigm.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">Sometimes opposing paradigms can coexist, not negating each other, but complementing each other. For example, this is the case with Euclid's fifth postulate (the parallel postulate).</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">The postulate has long been considered self-evident or inevitable, but no evidence has been found. Eventually, it was discovered that reversing the postulate gave valid, albeit different, geometries. A geometry where the parallelism postulate does not hold is known as non-Euclidean geometry.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">With regard to the paradigm of "intelligence" we have a similar situation. We have at least two opposing paradigms based on two opposing postulates.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">The first, let's call it the "flat intelligence postulate", was well articulated by Yixin in his post:</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">"Intelligence is the ability to solve problems, but not the ability to detect and define problems, the latter of which is one of the faculties of wisdom."</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">The second, let's call it the "non-flat intelligence postulate", will sound unifying: "Intelligence is both the ability to solve problems and the ability to detect and define problems" (Eric), but in different directions in the hierarchy of intelligences (KM)". This is how we arrive at the idea of cybernetic systems, where there is a controller and a controlled, but the controller is connected to the environment from which it receives controlling influences and is, in practice, both "controller" and "controlled", but in different aspects of the system.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 115.0%;"> </span></p>
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<p style="text-align: center;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;" align="center"><span style="line-height: 115.0%;"></span><span style="line-height: 115.0%;"></span></p>
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<p style="text-align: justify;margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 10.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: calibri , sans-serif;">To be continued ...</p>
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На ср, 18.10.2023 г. в 15:07 ч.
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-request@listas.unizar.es></a> написа:
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Send Fis mailing list submissions to
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<br> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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<br> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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<br> Today's Topics:
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<br> 1. Re: Paradigm AI - I guess we call it Genius (Eric Werner)
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<br> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
<br> From: Eric Werner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
<br> To: Karl Javorszky
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><karl.javorszky@gmail.com></a>
<br> Cc: "钟义信"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>, fis
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<br> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:07:13 +0200
<br> Subject: Re: [Fis] Paradigm AI - I guess we call it Genius
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<p>Dear Karl,</p>
<p>Thank you for bringing this important point to my attention. Here are some thoughts:<br></p>
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<h1>I guess we call it Genius </h1>
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<li>Difference between generating and understanding or reading</li>
<li>Super intelligence, requires genius or generational understanding</li>
<li>Generative intelligence</li>
<li>Creative intelligence</li>
<li>Compositional intelligence</li>
<li>Formative intelligence</li>
<li>Evolutional intelligence</li>
<li>Restricting, intelligence to problem-solving, dismisses, creative acts of composition in science and the arts</li>
<li>Think of Heinz Kohut’s formation of the self in psychology versus Freudian reactive psychology</li>
<li>It’s the difference between discovering a theorem, and proving the theorem</li>
<li>It’s the difference between school-boy problem-solving, and Newton</li>
<li>Some psychologists think of intelligence in relationship to testing people for their ability to cope in educational institutions. They want to see if they are college material or not. <br></li>
<li>With future All systems were talking about Newton level intelligence not college level intelligence</li>
<li>Kantian synthetic intelligence </li>
<li>We better be ready for that! If not, we got some real problems. <br></li>
<li>That is why making these systems social and cooperative is so essential.<br></li>
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<p>We may quickly reach a point where the compositional creative intelligence of artificial models is so powerful, we will not be able to understand them. Not just how they work. We already don't understand how they work now. But their reasoning and new outputs such, as for example, mathematical insights. Imagine a system that can reason and develop 2,000 years of mathematics in a few minutes. It is precisely this overarching linking of knowledge that makes for real intelligence such as that of Leibniz or Newton. The old school model of psychological testing of intelligence uses a definition of intelligence that is to limiting for AI models. AI models are not your evey day student. <br></p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric<br></p>
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On 10/18/23 12:59 PM, Karl Javorszky wrote:
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<p>Dear Eric,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Your statement: „The essence of general intelligence is the ability to not only solve an externally given problem but to be creative and find and define problems.” is at deviance to accepted delineations of concepts in the trade of psychology. Rohracher [1] has defined in 1969 (and to my knowledge, no one has disputed this wording): “Intelligence is the degree of efficiency [of the CNS] while solving new problems.”</p>
<p>What you refer to is subsumed variously under: creativity, alertness, curiosity, vitality, spontaneity. </p>
<p>There is consensus in the epistemology of psychology that there can exist no final, conclusive, all-encompassing theory of personality (in which intelligence and adaptability/curiosity would or would not be separated as concepts), because if such an ultimate, final, true theory of personality would exist, that assumption would negate the axiomatic rule that one can always learn something new, at least about himself. There is, by definition, no end to introspection and philosophy. One can always come up with a new theory of personality and one cannot rule out that a new theory of personality would be more reasonable, truer, more conclusive than anything that has existed before.</p>
<p>Psychologists see theories about mind and soul in the same way believers see their God. It is impossible to recognize all features of God, let alone to insist that one has a correct reading.</p>
<p>So, if you decide not to distinguish between efficiency of solving new problems and ability and tendency towards finding new problems to solve, you are free to do so. Established use of words splits the two personality traits.</p>
<p>I have prepared a statement about the key word “otherwise”. The word is needed to scale the efficiency of mental processes while solving new problems (aka ‘intelligence’) by scaling the diversity/similarity properties of alternatives. To be able to efficiently choose between alternatives, one needs to have alternatives that are different among each other. The task is to find such collections of symbols that are alternatives to each other, not by machinations by humans, but as members of a symbols collection. This task is not easy to solve while using the symbols set in the traditional, Sumerian ways only. One needs to assume that symbols have their own properties, by their nature, immanent to them. </p>
<p>Due to the two-messages-per-week rule, the contribution shall come next week.</p>
<p>Karl</p>
<p>[1] Rohracher, H.: Einführung in die Psychologie, Urban & Schwarzenberg, Wien 1951</p>
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Am Mi., 18. Okt. 2023 um 12:01 Uhr schrieb Eric Werner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>:
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<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Thank you for you comments! <br></p>
<p>To your point (2): The essence of general intelligence is the ability to not only solve an externally given problem, but to be creative and find and define problems. For example, given a knowledge of mathematics and physics and data to generate new mathematics and new insights into the nature of the world. <br></p>
<p>To your point (3): Biotechnology and AI are somewhat independent fields. AI can help genome research and decoding genomes. But once genomes are decoded that information can be used to construct more general AI models. When I say "architecture" I meant the architecture of the human brain encoded in the human genome. This architectural information can be used to guide the structuring of AI models be be more potent and more human like. And, AI may well help in the process of structuring its future version. That is what I meant by selfreferencing. <br></p>
<p>To the more general point, formalization of social information can help guide the improvement of AI models to be more social and have greater abilities in a AI-robot social setting. <br></p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Eric <br></p>
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On 10/18/23 9:16 AM, 钟义信 wrote:
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear Eric,</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Thank you for the interesting talk on "Paradigm AI" from which I learned a lot. </font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">As a discussant, may I propose some of my understanding. Comments are welcome. </font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(1) I appreciate your idea that saying "Physics paradigm PPD does not fit well with AI paradigm" and "Information paradigm PID is a better fit". This is the valuable common basis, between you and me, concerning the PPD, PID and AI.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(2) How to define the concept of intelligence? This is a very difficult problem. To my own understanding, the following short statement may serve as one of the candidates: <u>Intelligence is the ability to solve problem but not the ability to find and define problem, the latter of which is one of the abilities for wisdom.</u></font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><u><br></u></font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(3) The paradigm for AI can be used as the paradigm for bio-technology with certain simplification and specialization. This judgement is not based on their "structure/architecture", but based on their "information function" - which is the basic function in both AI and biotechnology, that is to seek opportunity for "living (or solving problem)" and to avoid the "danger (or failing to problem solving)".</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Once again, comments and criticisms are most welcome.</font>
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<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best regards,</font>
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<h4 style="margin: 0.0px;font-size: 14.0px;font-weight: bold;line-height: 28.0px;color: rgb(0,0,0);">Prof. Yixin ZHONG</h4>
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AI School, BUPT
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Beijing 100876, China
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<b>From: </b> "Eric Werner"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
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<b>Date: </b> Tue, Oct 17, 2023 02:32 AM
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<b>To: </b> "fis"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
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<b>Subject: </b> [Fis] Paradigm AI
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<p>Here are some brief thoughts on Paradigms and AI by I presume was written by Yixin Zhong since I cannot read Chinese. <br></p>
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<h1>Paradigm AI</h1>
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<li>I agree that the physics paradigm PPD doesn’t fit well with the AI paradigm, and that the information paradigm PID is a better fit</li>
<li>Artificial intelligence systems, don’t necessarily learn from human beings. In unsupervised learning they learn from data and not from humans.</li>
<li>The problem, and becomes really how to define what intelligence is: Which of the following is it?<br></li>
<ul>
<li>Rational inference</li>
<li>Summarizing large amounts of text and data</li>
<li>Making new predictions based on scientific theories and available data</li>
<li>Developing new theories that explain the data in the more succinct way, and making new predictions</li>
<li>Developing new technologies independently of human input</li>
<li>Planning and executing the actions and intentions of a robot</li>
<li>Having social intelligence</li>
<li>Being cooperative with a human being in achieving a task </li>
<li>Interrelating two discipline, such as physics and mathematics, to make new discoveries</li>
<li>Understanding, genomes in the way that human beings cannot</li>
<li>Designing new organisms by designing their genomes</li>
</ul>
<li>I agree with the language of a new paradigm, such as artificial intelligence will develop slowly step by step in conjunction with its use -both conceptually and experimentally .</li>
<li>In a new paradigm entire new language is created as a paradigm is developed</li>
<li>The language evolves in concert with a new ontology suggested by the paradigm</li>
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<li>It is an ontology of objects, technologies, actions, and strategies</li>
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<li>What will be particularly interesting, is the <b><font size="5">linking of the paradigm of artificial intelligence with the paradigm of biotechnology</font></b></li>
<ul>
<li>Biotechnology and AI will truly link the human brain with the artificial brain</li>
<li>The genome of the natural brain will be reflected in the architecture of the artificial brain</li>
<li>Hence by using AI to decode the genome of the natural brain, it will be self-reflected in the design of the developing artificial brain </li>
<li>This will bring unprecedented social and rational functionality to the artificial brain </li>
<li>Note that the biotech-genome paradigm also is founded on the information paradigm.<br></li>
</ul>
</ul>
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<p>Thank you Yixin Zhong for your input and emphasizing the intimate relationship of information and AI paradigms. <br></p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric <br></p>
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