<div dir="auto">Off topic<div dir="auto">Is the server down?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>> schrieb am Fr., 27. Okt. 2023, 13:55:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br clear="all"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">There is no such thing as "Artificial Wisdom": my opinion. I am sorry.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">To have this: you have to change the definition of what "wisdom" is.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">There is no problem with this at all, since we have witnessed much wilder re-definitions of concepts/terms during the past 3 years, particularly from the leftist revisionists camp.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">For instance, if you allow that AI can be "Alien Intelligence" like some "conspiracy" scientists*/influencers/blog writers suggest, then this might be possible. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">However, we will need to have proof of the aliens' existence and some kind of their logic/cognition/etc first.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">If this happens to be again some kind of automatic/controlled/programmed sophisticated "pattern recognition" like the present day AI (ML/DML...), I reject accepting it as wisdom at all. To be honest, many human beings in East and West (now) come along pretty well with their own programmed/controlled/suggested/induced/mesmerized intelligence cognition from outside e.g. through the media and other influences. This does not imply wisdom from them. Wisdom is typically associated with sages (Socrates, Confucius, Lao Tsu, etc.) and old people with plenty of life experience. It is also associated with whole nations as a collective capability, provided that at least 90% of their population is not used to watching TV/smartphone ads & news only. This means that only a few nations in the world like Nepal and Bhutan might be considered as wise, since they appear to be have their own mind and are resistant to external manipulation. Of course, they must have a unique culture, language, script, songs, traditions, etc. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Terms like "wisdom", "intelligence" and "feelings" are genuinely human. If you want to introduce new meanings to them, you have to compare them with the human capabilities and to explain why such a distinction is made. What about inventing and using some new term to denote such novel capabilities of non-human machines/devices/aliens?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Expanding the language is much easier than creating a mess in already messy communications between human beings, even in the science disciplines which use the same terms for different things. So, why not use our human creativity to call new things and phenomena around us? Example: I searched the net some while ago before coining the unique term "integral biomathics" as a new field/discipline that should not be mixed neither with systems biology nor with any other so far available area for research. Making a clear cut distinction is so important for avoiding misunderstandings. All these folks who began reusing words and terms in conventional (English) language to define their own world and mix it with the one we have been living so far have no imagination at all. They have to design their own language and their own terms to communicate. Why should they impose their new meanings on our old languages? Because they want to rule over us. The WHO/WEF/UN folks and all the woke supporters. They are the aliens on this planet and they should talk in their own Dumbledore or Yoda language and not ours. I don't give a dime for it, because they already know what "Wisdom" is.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"> </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">All the best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763">Plamen</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:#073763"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8.1pt"><span lang="EN-GB"><font color="#073763"><font face="Arial, sans-serif" style="font-size:medium">___ ___ ___</font><span></span></font></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-GB"><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763"><b>Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov</b><span></span></font></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-GB"><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763">Director Research Integral Biomathics<span></span></font></span></p><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#073763"><i><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.simeio.org/focus/about/inbioce/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U3vU6PswXxgCTghiooM9T-4MvWoM7NO7cFuVaXNi5K4OJv22G_DfxwnsYDN8oiOLPZhFDKBPXocNr7eprH24k_RXj9So$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">InBioCe</a></span></i><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.simeio.org/focus/about/molbio2math/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U3vU6PswXxgCTghiooM9T-4MvWoM7NO7cFuVaXNi5K4OJv22G_DfxwnsYDN8oiOLPZhFDKBPXocNr7eprH24k696BNAd$" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"> –<b> </b></a><i><a 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<div>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>As you know from my different responses regarding Wisdom and
Meta-AI (Artificial Wisdom) I am of a rather split opinion: </p>
<p>On the one hand, the poetic emotional side of me sees the
necessary inclusion of an ethics of fairness for all living
creatures. I am skeptical, like you, that AI can achieve this
consistently. I am worried about the ramifications of using AI
systems in a military-governmental decision making process. <br>
</p>
<p>On the other hand, it may well come about that Meta-AI is
possible. Such a system poses questions, creates new problems that
it then solves. Such a Meta-AI system could rapidly explore
different combinations of explicit and implicit theoretical
assumptions. Leading to new theories about nature and the world.
It could then propose new experiments that confirm or disconfirm
its theory or hypotheses. It could see long range relationships,
logical, mathematical in different specialized theories or mental
frameworks. Meta-AI is one of the founding cornerstones of
General AI. It presupposes that reasoning and not just parroting
can be learned in some way. <br>
</p>
<p>Some more thoughts on Wisdom: <br>
</p>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1>Human wisdom is distributed and contradictory<br>
</h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li><b>AI models can contain all of human wisdom </b>-
including conflicting Wisdom<br>
</li>
<li><b>Conflicting Wisdom:</b></li>
<ul>
<li>One societies Wisdom may be another societies doom<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li><b>Realpolitik of human wisdom</b></li>
<ul>
<li>As soon as limited resources, come in we get conflict</li>
</ul>
<li><b>Imagine 10 people </b>on the land that supports 10
people if they all share what they find among the other 10</li>
<ul>
<li>If they are greedy, it reduces the population</li>
<li>It depends on if they really need 10 to find the food for
10. If five are sufficient to survive on the same land with
less stress, then there’s a temptation to get rid of or
disadvange the other five</li>
<li>Increase and search or intelligence algorithms whether a
genetic or soft can lead to more resource findings</li>
<li>Sharing knowledge leads to greater distributed,
productivity and more can join the community</li>
</ul>
<li>T<b>he life and death struggle</b></li>
<ul>
<li>Imagine another group of 10 comes in to the same area that
supports only 10. Then we get conflict. They may cooperate
but half have to die because of limited resources.</li>
<li>Same holds for university positions</li>
<li>Same holds for a limited resources in well-to-do societies
versus less able societies</li>
<li>Taking advantage of one side's ability against the other</li>
</ul>
<li><b>Power Creates Laws to Perpetuate Power </b><br>
</li>
<ul>
<li>Speech is regulated, prevent thought and action that may
lead to change of the status quo of power</li>
<li>Servants must be servile <br>
</li>
<li>Those in power must pretend to be generous to the extent
that the servant does not rebel</li>
<li>The good master (wants to be seen as Wise, knowing what is
good for the underlings)<br>
</li>
<li>The parasite must not kill its host, unless or until it
can jump to another host</li>
<li>A parasite of a parasite leads to a hierarchy of parasites
<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li>L<b>imited Resources Disturb the Ideal of Fairness and
Absolute Wisdom</b><br>
</li>
<ul>
<li>As soon as limited resources come into play the ideal no
longer works</li>
<li>The group with more power in the given environment can win
the resources</li>
<li>With limited resources, there can be no compromise after a
certain point of sharing</li>
</ul>
</ul>
Thus my ambivalence concerning Wisdom.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Best wishes,</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Eric<br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<p></p>
<div>On 10/25/23 2:12 PM, 钟义信 wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Dear Eric,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There have many mysteries remained in wisdom. This is one of
the reasons that the concept of AI does not involve wisdom and
therefore AI is able to solve problem but is unable to define
problem. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wisdom is creative in nature but AI is not. It is my belief
that humans can build up AI but cannot build up AW (artificial
wisdom).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wisdom can only be owned by humans but not by any machines.
Do you think so? Please give comments on the point.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yixin <br>
<br>
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--------------原始邮件--------------<br>
发件人："Eric Werner "<a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;<br>
发送时间：2023年10月25日(星期三) 晚上7:00<br>
收件人："钟义信" <a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;<br>
抄送："Joeseph Brenner "<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><joe.brenner@bluewin.ch></a>;"fis
"<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;<br>
主题：Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human Wisdom vs
Meta-Intelligence<br>
-----------------------------------<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Dear Yixin,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:19px"><b>The Relativity and
Realpolitik of Human Wisdom:</b></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:19px"><b><br>
</b></span></div>
<div>Once we relativize Wisdom to human beings and excluded
from artificial intelligent systems then wisdom will vary
over different human beings. A grandmother may have a
different kind of wisdom then a grandfather. It will vary
in different cultures. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another problem is that wisdom can be for the good of all
or for the good of a few if it’s restricted or if it’s
malevolent. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>“Knowing how” is a kind of strategic wisdom that can be
transferred from one person to another or from a AI model to
another AI model, robot, or human. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To set the boundary between what is beneficial for all
human beings may and what is not may in itself create an
inherent contradiction. This is especially so if there is
conflict between groups of humans or animals or even AI
systems. <br>
<br>
It may be that a met-AI system may be better at
differentiating in a neutral way between human needs because
of its inherent nonhuman neutrality. This of course, has
its problems as well. Indeed the very creation of the AI
model may be set with bias, as is seen in the conflicts
between leftist and rightist AI models. Determining
neutrality may be impossible in a social setting of diverse
beliefs. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What may be perceived as good for one group of humans may
be disastrous for another group of human beings. This is
seen clearly in the relationship between humans and animals
where what is good for humans is not always good for say a
pig or a cow or a duck or a chicken. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thus even the notion of being good for all human beings
maybe beset with problems that are potentially
insurmountable especially in the political world. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So that is the realpolitik and relativity of human
wisdom.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Oct 25, 2023, at 12:25 PM, 钟义信
<a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Joe, Eric, and colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the simplity of my reply I just emphase one
point that is, all study carried out by humans should
be based on human centered stand. Otherwise, humans'
research leads to extinguish humans themself. That
would be meaningless.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards, <br>
<br>
----------<br>
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--------------原始邮件--------------<br>
发件人："Joeseph Brenner "<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><joe.brenner@bluewin.ch></a>;<br>
发送时间：2023年10月25日(星期三) 下午5:17<br>
收件人："Eric Werner" <a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;"钟义信"
<a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;"fis"
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;<br>
主题：Re: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12 Human
Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence<br>
-----------------------------------<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><font size="3">Dear Yixin, Dear Eric,</font>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">I very much welcome your
complexification of the notion of
wisdom/intelligence. First of all, it eliminates
the flavor of omnipotence which accompanies some
discourse on Artificial Intelligence.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">One now needs to define further
the characteristics of Human Centered Wisdom
(what Yixin has been talking about all along) so
that the same mistakes are not made in
discussing Artificial Human Centered Wisdom.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">My suggestion would be to look
at the kinds of logic ("Eastern" or "Western")
that are most applicable to/in the two domains.
Are we sure, however, that all our objectives
can be achieved by reference to problem solving.
Of course, living with unsolved problems simply
carries out an additional iteration or recursion
step, but it might be worthwhile if this were
recognized explicitly.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:large">Eric
concludes "It seems AHCW is more restrictive
than AMI". I agree, but suggest it should be
said that AHCW is also more restrictive than
HCW.</span></div>
<div><font size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Best wishes,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Joseph <br>
</font>
<blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px">----Original
Message----<br>
From : <a href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">eric.werner@oarf.org</a><br>
Date : 24/10/2023 - 10:54 (E)<br>
To : <a href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">zyx@bupt.edu.cn</a>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
Subject : Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue
12 Human Wisdom vs Meta-Intelligence<br>
<br>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Just had some clarifying thoughts while
taking a shower (embodied intelligence 😉)</p>
<p>You state: "<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the context of
technical study, wisdom means the ability to
define the problem, which should be good for
all humans if solved, and intelligence means
the ability to solve the problem defined by
wisdom." <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">To
clarify:</font></p>
<ol>
<li><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> Let
me define the ability to define the
problem as <b>Meta-Intelligence MI<br>
<br>
</b></font></li>
<li><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">And
define </font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">ability to define
the problem, which should be<b> good for
all humans</b> if solved, as <b>Human-Centered-Wisdom
</b></font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">HCW</font><br>
<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><b><br>
</b></font></li>
<li>Define <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><b> intelligence</b>
as the ability to solve the problem
defined by Meta-Intelligence or
Human-Centered-Wisdom <br>
</font></li>
</ol>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Under
these definitions, Artificial Human Centered
Wisdom AHCW will be a different challenge
than Artificial Meta Intelligence AMI <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Given
the right technology AMI may well be
achievable and may give different answers
than Artificial Human Centered Wisdom, if
the latter is even achievable.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I think
this clarifies the differences in
understanding of wisdom and the capacity to
intelligently solve the problems posed by
the different types of Wisdom. It seems AHCW
is more restritive than AMI. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best
wishes,</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Eric <br>
</font></p>
<div> On 10/24/23 9:26
AM, Eric Werner wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Dear Yixin, <br>
</p>
<p>I am getting a better understanding of what
you mean by wisdom. Thank you for your
patience! <br>
</p>
<p>This morning I had some thoughts described
below. <br>
</p>
<p>You state: "<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the context of
technical study, wisdom means the ability
to define the problem, which should be
good for all humans if solved, and
intelligence means the ability to solve
the problem defined by wisdom." <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In
mathematics and other sciences, there is
the difference between proving theorems
and discovering a theorem. Many bright
mathematicians make their name by proving
theorems. Others like Gödel in his proof
of the incompleteness theorem (inherent
limits of the axiomatic method) linked
together very different concepts-methods
(Cantor's diagonal method and </font><span style="color:rgb(232,234,237);font-family:"Google Sans",arial,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;background-color:rgb(32,33,36);display:inline;float:none">arithmetization</span><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">) to come
up with a wonderful result. Proving is
commonplace compared to coming up with a
concept. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Missing
from the parrot-like LLMs is true
reasoning and questioning. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">However,
I am not convinced that an artificial
intelligent-rational system would not be
able to formulate its own questions,
create new concepts and new method of
solving its own conundrums. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Here
are the other earlier thoughts of this
morning:</font></p>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1>Can wisdom be learned?</h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Artificial wisdom AW</li>
<li>Social wisdom SW</li>
<li>Artificial Social Wisdom ASW</li>
<li>Embodied AI, Embodied AW</li>
<li>Artificial Ethics AE</li>
<li>Human wisdom HW as generated by
experience<br>
</li>
<ul>
<li>Rare </li>
<li>There but for the grace of God go I</li>
<li>We often cannot understand someone
until are in their shoes- experience
their situation </li>
<li>Examples: Growing old, living in a
different country or culture or
region, learning or knowing a
different subject, being in a war zone
</li>
<li>You have to know two or more
subjects to interrelate them </li>
</ul>
<li>Artificial rationality AR</li>
<li>Understanding requires</li>
<ul>
<li>Information </li>
<ul>
<li>State </li>
<li>Intention-Strategic<br>
</li>
<li>Value - Emotional Info<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li>Operators </li>
<ul>
<li>Transform information </li>
<li>This gives the dynamics to
rational thought<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li>Ability or capacities </li>
<li>Intelligence </li>
<ul>
<li>Circular?? Rational inference</li>
<li>Questioning and reasoning in self
dialogue<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li>Can intelligence be learned?</li>
<ul>
<li>Seems to require basic
competencies-capacities<br>
</li>
<li>Reasoning </li>
<li>Social </li>
<li>Emotional </li>
<li>Wisdom (circular)</li>
</ul>
<li>How organized is the brain?</li>
<ul>
<li>Inherent competencies </li>
<li>Modular capacities of the brain<br>
</li>
<ul>
<li>Linguistic, visual, auditory,
semantic, pragmatic, motor<br>
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Wisdom Requires </li>
<ul>
<li>Experience</li>
<li>Capacities </li>
<li>Reasoning </li>
<ul>
<li>Dynamic</li>
<li>Self reflection </li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</div>
<br>
<p>Hope this clarifies my thoughts somewhat. </p>
<p>In summary, I am inclined to view the
possibility of Artificial Wisdom AW as a
very real possibility. It is an open
question whether the Parrot-Like-LLMs will
ever achieve AW, but a hybrid might. </p>
<p>Kind regards,</p>
<p>Eric<br>
</p>
<div> On 10/24/23 3:58
AM, 钟义信 wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear
Eric,</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I
am also very worried about the military
uses of AI. This is an issue on
technical ethics and needs the strong
cooperation between all governments. </font>
</div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">We,
as scientists and professors, have the
responsibility to promote the study of
technical ethics in AI. At the same
time, we have to pay more attentions to
the technical study of AI itself.</font>
</div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I
agree with you on the characters of
wisdom: fairness, kindness, love, for
all humans, for all life, and, all in
all, for living and developments of all
people.</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In
the context of technical study, wisdom
means the ability to define the problem,
which should be good for all humans if
solved, and intelligence means the
ability to solve the problem defined by
wisdom.</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Keeping
the difference between wisdom and
intelligence mentioned above, it is
believed that intelligence can be
simulated by machine whereas wisdom
cannot be simulated by machine. In other
word, <u>AI cannot be creative in the
meaning of unable to define the
problem good for all humans in solved</u>.
I wonder if you agree or not.</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best
regards,</font> </div>
<div> <u></u>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Verdana;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div style="overflow:hidden">
<div style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0px;padding:0px 10px 0px 15px;border-right-width:1px;border-right-style:solid;border-right-color:rgb(222,222,222)">
<div style="max-height:150px;overflow:hidden;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left">
<br>
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;overflow:hidden;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left">
<br>
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;overflow:hidden;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left">
<img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn"> </div>
</div>
<div style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:rgb(160,160,160);zoom:1">
<h4 style="margin:0px;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:rgb(0,0,0);zoom:1">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div> AI School, BUPT </div>
<div> Beijing 100876, China </div>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px;line-height:22px;color:rgb(160,160,160)"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<u></u> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> <u></u>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:"Arial Narrow";padding:2px 0px">
------------------ Original
------------------ </div>
<div style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(239,239,239);padding:8px">
<div id="m_3417839035969300305m_7278818563694811977menu_sender"> <b>From: </b> "Eric
Werner" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;
</div>
<div> <b>Date: </b> Mon, Oct 23,
2023 05:33 PM </div>
<div> <b>To: </b> "钟义信" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;
"fis" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
</div>
<div> <b>Subject: </b> Re:
[Fis]回复： Fis Digest, Vol 105,
Issue 12 </div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div lang="x-unicode">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1><br>
</h1>
Dear Yixin, Ma </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Thank you all for your
thoughtful contributions
Krassimir, Marcus, Pedro,
Yixin. Thinking about wisdom
and human nature and AI.
Recently viewing the uses of
AI in weapons systems already
being designed and produced by
corporations that sell to
governments, made me hesitate
about what we are doing. We
need a deep discussion about
artificial intelligence in a
social industrial governmental
military context. <br>
<h1>AI in love and war</h1>
<div align="center"> <i><b>We
walk lightly along the
edge of a deep ravine, </b></i>
</div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>where
can be seen </b></i> </div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>the
results of passions
played. </b></i> </div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>Oh,
I loved too much, </b></i>
</div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>and
by such, by such </b></i>
</div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>is
happiness thrown away.</b></i>
</div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>I
had wooed not as I
should</b></i> </div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>a
creature made of clay</b></i>
</div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>When
the angel woos the clay
</b></i> </div>
<div align="center"> <i><b>he'd
lose his wings<br>
</b></i> </div>
<div align="center"> <b>at
the dawning of the day</b>
</div>
<div align="center"> <b><br>
</b> </div>
<div align="center"> (Adapted
from a poem 'On Raglan Road'
by Patrick Kavanagh) <br>
</div>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Wisdom in the wide human
sense</li>
<ul>
<li>Fairness</li>
<li>Kindness</li>
<li>Love</li>
<li>For all humans </li>
<li>For all life</li>
</ul>
<li>Military uses of AI</li>
<ul>
<li>Goal directed</li>
<li>Antagonistic</li>
<li>Cooperative</li>
<li>Destructive</li>
<li>Murderous </li>
<li>Anti-human</li>
<li>Financially motivated</li>
</ul>
<li>An AI model is like a
child</li>
<ul>
<li>It can be molded to the
wishes of the user</li>
<li>At the same time, it’s
like a mother that
responds to every wish</li>
<li>It is an all knowing God</li>
<li>Connected to a robotic
system, it can heal, but
it can also murder</li>
<li>AI is a child of
humankind</li>
<li>All too human</li>
<li>A savior and genocidal</li>
</ul>
<li>What will we do?<br>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
<div lang="x-unicode"> King regards, </div>
<div lang="x-unicode"> <br>
</div>
<div lang="x-unicode"> Eric </div>
<div lang="x-unicode"> <br>
<div dir="ltr"> Sent from my
iPhone </div>
</div>
<div> On
10/22/23 9:43 AM, <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer">zyx@bupt.edu.cn</a>
wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto"> Dear Eric,
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> You proposed a number of
points which are interesting
and important Thank you very
much! </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I would like to discuss at
least some of them not now,
but a few days later because
my notebook was trouble some
the day before yesterday. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Best wished, </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Yixin <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div id="m_3417839035969300305m_7278818563694811977hw_signature"> 发自我的手机
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="line-height:1.5"> <br>
<br>
-------- 原始邮件 -------- <br>
发件人： Eric Werner <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>
<br>
日期： 2023年10月19日周四 傍晚5:56 <br>
收件人： 钟义信 <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>,
fis <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
<br>
主 题： Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol
105, Issue 12 <br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Can you be more specific
what you mean by "change
the paradigm used in AI".
It might help to give a
specific example. </p>
<p>*At present AI systems
certainly behave as if
they are goal directed. <br>
</p>
<p>*AI systems appear to
have wisdom in that they
can propose wise courses
of action</p>
<p>* What do you mean by
"pure formalism"? It
seems one of the powers of
formalism is to understand
AI and human intelligence.
<br>
</p>
<p>* It seems AI systems
exhibit human-like wisdom
when they offer advice or
guide the actions of a
virtual assistant or self
driving car. The react
based on the circumstances
and goals of the other, at
leas to an extent. <br>
</p>
<p>* Why can't a machine
understand human goals and
purposes if it gains a
model of those from human
data? <br>
</p>
<p>* Why can't an AI system
have intentions? <br>
</p>
<p>My overall problem is
understanding your
specific criticism of the
present AI paradigm? This
notion seems to me to need
clearer definition. <br>
</p>
<p>How would you overcome
the present AI paradigm
and what specifically is
different when you want to
"change the paradigm used
in AI"???</p>
<p>This is not a criticism
it is a real question in
trying to understand you.
At present I just don't
see the difference between
the present AI paradigm
and your new AI paradigm.
<br>
</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div> On 10/19/23 8:48 AM,
钟义信 wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear
Krassimir, Dear Eric,
and Dear Colleagues,</font>
</div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">The
discussion is going on
well thanks to all
your efforts.</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Here
is a few points I
would like to mention
(or re-mention).</font>
</div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(1)
The purpose of the
"declaration on
Paradigm Change in AI"
is to make an appeal
for <u>change the
paradigm used in AI.</u> </font>
</div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(2)
There may have
different
understanding on the
concept of paradigm.
However, <u>the
concept of paradigm
for a scientific
discipline has been
re-defined as the
scientific world
view and the
associated
methodology</u> because
the scientific
worldview and its
methodology as a whole
is the only factor
that can determine
whether a scientific
discipline needs a
"revolution" (Kuhn's
language).</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(3)
The major result of
"paradigm change in
AI" is <u>to change
the methodology used
in AI, including the
principles of "pure
formalism" and
"divide and conquer"</u>.
This is because of the
fact that <u>the
former principle
leads to the
ignoring the meaning
and value and thus
leads to the loss of
understanding
ability and
explaining ability</u>
while <u>the latter
one leads to the
loss of the general
theory for AI</u>.
Note that "no
explaining ability"
and "no general
theory" are the most
typical and also most
concerned problems for
current AI.</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(4)
There is <u>difference
between human
intelligence and
human wisdom</u>.
One of the functions
of human wisdom is to
find the to-be-solved
problem which must be
meaningful for human
purpose of improving
the living and
developing. Yet, the
function of human
intelligence is to
solve the problem
defined by human
wisdom. </font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(5)
Human intelligence can
be simulated by
machine. But human
wisdom cannot be
simulated by machine
because machine is
non-living beings that
has no its own purpose
and cannot understand
human purpose. No
purpose means no
wisdom.</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I
wonder if you agree or
not. Comments are
welcome!</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best
regards,</font> </div>
<div>
<div> <font size="4" face="SimSun,STSong"><br>
</font> </div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:verdana;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
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<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left"> <img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn"> </div>
</div>
<div style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:rgb(160,160,160)">
<h4 style="margin:0px;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div> AI School,
BUPT </div>
<div> Beijing
100876, China </div>
<p style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px;line-height:22px;color:rgb(160,160,160)"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
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<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:"arial narrow";padding:2px 0px">
------------------
Original
------------------ </div>
<div style="font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(239,239,239);padding:8px">
<div> <b>From: </b> "Krassimir
Markov" <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><itheaiss@gmail.com></a>; </div>
<div> <b>Date: </b> Thu,
Oct 19, 2023 03:32
AM </div>
<div> <b>To: </b> "fis"
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>; </div>
<div> <b>Subject: </b> Re:
[Fis] Fis Digest,
Vol 105, Issue 12
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
Dear Yixin, Eric
and FIS
colleagues,
<div> Let me
present some
thoughts about
</div>
<div>
<p style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" align="center"><b>The
“Intelligence”
Paradigm</b></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">For
those who are
not familiar
with the
concepts of
"paradigm" and
"paradigm
shift", I
would
recommend
texts from
Wikipedia that
explain it
clearly
enough.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">I
myself
maintain a
neutral
position in
the dispute
between Popper
and Kuhn
regarding the
development of
science. Both
theses have
their grounds,
but at
different
levels and
stages. In
fact, in this
case, the law
of
quantitative
accumulation,
which leads to
qualitative
changes,
applies.
Obviously, in
a number of
cases the
paradigm shift
happens in
leaps and
bounds, while
in others it
happens
smoothly and
barely
perceptibly.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">For
example, the
accumulation
of sufficient
observations
and evidences
regarding the
shape of the
earth required
a shift to a
new paradigm:
from the
"Earth is
flat" paradigm
to the "Earth
is not flat"
paradigm.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">Sometimes
opposing
paradigms can
coexist, not
negating each
other, but
complementing
each other.
For example,
this is the
case with
Euclid's fifth
postulate (the
parallel
postulate).</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">The
postulate has
long been
considered
self-evident
or inevitable,
but no
evidence has
been found.
Eventually, it
was discovered
that reversing
the postulate
gave valid,
albeit
different,
geometries. A
geometry where
the
parallelism
postulate does
not hold is
known as
non-Euclidean
geometry.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">With
regard to the
paradigm of
"intelligence"
we have a
similar
situation. We
have at least
two opposing
paradigms
based on two
opposing
postulates.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">The
first, let's
call it the
"flat
intelligence
postulate",
was well
articulated by
Yixin in his
post:</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">"Intelligence
is the ability
to solve
problems, but
not the
ability to
detect and
define
problems, the
latter of
which is one
of the
faculties of
wisdom."</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">The
second, let's
call it the
"non-flat
intelligence
postulate",
will sound
unifying:
"Intelligence
is both the
ability to
solve problems
and the
ability to
detect and
define
problems"
(Eric), but in
different
directions in
the hierarchy
of
intelligences
(KM)". This is
how we arrive
at the idea of
cybernetic
systems, where
there is a
controller and
a controlled,
but the
controller is
connected to
the
environment
from which it
receives
controlling
influences and
is, in
practice, both
"controller"
and
"controlled",
but in
different
aspects of the
system.</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="line-height:115%"> </span></p>
<img width="472" height="359"> <br>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"><span style="line-height:115%"> </span></p>
<p style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" align="center"><span style="line-height:115%"></span><span style="line-height:115%"></span></p>
<p style="text-align:center;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif" align="center"><br>
</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif">To
be continued
...</p>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"> На
ср,
18.10.2023 г. в
15:07 ч. <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer"><fis-request@listas.unizar.es></a> написа:
<br>
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