<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Just had some clarifying thoughts while taking a shower (embodied
intelligence 😉)</p>
<p>You state: "<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the context
of technical study, wisdom means the ability to define the
problem, which should be good for all humans if solved, and
intelligence means the ability to solve the problem defined by
wisdom." <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">To clarify:</font></p>
<ol>
<li><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> Let me define the
ability to define the problem as <b>Meta-Intelligence MI<br>
<br>
</b></font></li>
<li><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">And define </font><font
size="4" face="Times New Roman">ability to define the problem,
which should be<b> good for all humans</b> if solved, as <b>Human-Centered-Wisdom
</b></font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">HCW</font><br>
<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><b><br>
</b></font></li>
<li>Define <font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> <b>
intelligence</b> as the ability to solve the problem defined
by Meta-Intelligence or Human-Centered-Wisdom <br>
</font></li>
</ol>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Under these definitions,
Artificial Human Centered Wisdom AHCW will be a different
challenge than Artificial Meta Intelligence AMI <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Given the right technology
AMI may well be achievable and may give different answers than
Artificial Human Centered Wisdom, if the latter is even
achievable.</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I think this clarifies the
differences in understanding of wisdom and the capacity to
intelligently solve the problems posed by the different types of
Wisdom. It seems AHCW is more restritive than AMI. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best wishes,</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Eric <br>
</font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/24/23 9:26 AM, Eric Werner wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:330a0275-4082-497b-b77f-70530554b884@oarf.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Dear Yixin, <br>
</p>
<p>I am getting a better understanding of what you mean by wisdom.
Thank you for your patience! <br>
</p>
<p>This morning I had some thoughts described below. <br>
</p>
<p>You state: "<font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the
context of technical study, wisdom means the ability to define
the problem, which should be good for all humans if solved,
and intelligence means the ability to solve the problem
defined by wisdom." <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In mathematics and other
sciences, there is the difference between proving theorems and
discovering a theorem. Many bright mathematicians make their
name by proving theorems. Others like Gödel in his proof of
the incompleteness theorem (inherent limits of the axiomatic
method) linked together very different concepts-methods
(Cantor's diagonal method and </font><span
style="color: rgb(232, 234, 237); font-family: "Google Sans", arial, sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(32, 33, 36); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">arithmetization</span><font
size="4" face="Times New Roman">) to come up with a wonderful
result. Proving is commonplace compared to coming up with a
concept. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Missing from the
parrot-like LLMs is true reasoning and questioning. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">However, I am not
convinced that an artificial intelligent-rational system would
not be able to formulate its own questions, create new
concepts and new method of solving its own conundrums. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Here are the other
earlier thoughts of this morning:</font></p>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1>Can wisdom be learned?</h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Artificial wisdom AW</li>
<li>Social wisdom SW</li>
<li>Artificial Social Wisdom ASW</li>
<li>Embodied AI, Embodied AW</li>
<li>Artificial Ethics AE</li>
<li>Human wisdom HW as generated by experience<br>
</li>
<ul>
<li>Rare </li>
<li>There but for the grace of God go I</li>
<li>We often cannot understand someone until are in their
shoes- experience their situation </li>
<li>Examples: Growing old, living in a different country or
culture or region, learning or knowing a different
subject, being in a war zone </li>
<li>You have to know two or more subjects to interrelate
them </li>
</ul>
<li>Artificial rationality AR</li>
<li>Understanding requires</li>
<ul>
<li>Information </li>
<ul>
<li>State </li>
<li>Intention-Strategic<br>
</li>
<li>Value - Emotional Info<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li>Operators </li>
<ul>
<li>Transform information </li>
<li>This gives the dynamics to rational thought<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li>Ability or capacities </li>
<li>Intelligence </li>
<ul>
<li>Circular?? Rational inference</li>
<li>Questioning and reasoning in self dialogue<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li>Can intelligence be learned?</li>
<ul>
<li>Seems to require basic competencies-capacities<br>
</li>
<li>Reasoning </li>
<li>Social </li>
<li>Emotional </li>
<li>Wisdom (circular)</li>
</ul>
<li>How organized is the brain?</li>
<ul>
<li>Inherent competencies </li>
<li>Modular capacities of the brain<br>
</li>
<ul>
<li>Linguistic, visual, auditory, semantic, pragmatic,
motor<br>
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Wisdom Requires </li>
<ul>
<li>Experience</li>
<li>Capacities </li>
<li>Reasoning </li>
<ul>
<li>Dynamic</li>
<li>Self reflection </li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</div>
<br>
<p>Hope this clarifies my thoughts somewhat. </p>
<p>In summary, I am inclined to view the possibility of Artificial
Wisdom AW as a very real possibility. It is an open question
whether the Parrot-Like-LLMs will ever achieve AW, but a hybrid
might. </p>
<p>Kind regards,</p>
<p>Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/24/23 3:58 AM, 钟义信 wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:tencent_021232261F7B40215840F03D@qq.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear Eric,</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I am also very
worried about the military uses of AI. This is an issue on
technical ethics and needs the strong cooperation between
all governments. </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">We, as scientists and
professors, have the responsibility to promote the study of
technical ethics in AI. At the same time, we have to pay
more attentions to the technical study of AI itself.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I agree with you on
the characters of wisdom: fairness, kindness, love, for all
humans, for all life, and, all in all, for living and
developments of all people.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">In the context of
technical study, wisdom means the ability to define the
problem, which should be good for all humans if solved, and
intelligence means the ability to solve the problem defined
by wisdom.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Keeping the
difference between wisdom and intelligence mentioned above,
it is believed that intelligence can be simulated by machine
whereas wisdom cannot be simulated by machine. In other
word, <u>AI cannot be creative in the meaning of unable to
define the problem good for all humans in solved</u>. I
wonder if you agree or not.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><sign signid="99">
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Verdana;color:#000;"
class="signRealArea">
<div style="overflow:hidden;">
<div class="l_box"
style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0;padding:0 10px 0 15px;border-right:1px solid #dedede;">
<div class="logo"
style="max-height: 150px;overflow: hidden;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left;"><br>
</div>
<div class="logo"
style="max-height: 150px;overflow: hidden;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left;"><br>
</div>
<div class="logo"
style="max-height: 150px;overflow: hidden;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left;"><img
src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn"
onerror="" moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
</div>
<div class="c_detail"
style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0;zoom:1;">
<h4 class="name"
style="margin:0;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:#000;zoom:1;">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div>AI School, BUPT</div>
<div>Beijing 100876, China</div>
<p class="department" style="margin:0;"><br>
</p>
<p class="addr"
style="margin:0;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0;"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</sign></div>
<div> </div>
<div><includetail>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font:Verdana normal 14px;color:#000;">
<div
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow;padding:2px 0 2px 0;">------------------ Original ------------------</div>
<div
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px;background:#efefef;padding:8px;">
<div id="menu_sender"><b>From: </b> "Eric Werner"<a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;</div>
<div><b>Date: </b> Mon, Oct 23, 2023 05:33 PM</div>
<div><b>To: </b> "钟义信"<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" moz-do-not-send="true"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>;
"fis"<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
<wbr></div>
<div><b>Subject: </b> Re: [Fis]回复： Fis Digest, Vol 105,
Issue 12</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="position:relative;">
<p> </p>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1><br>
</h1>
Dear Yixin, Ma</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you all for your thoughtful
contributions Krassimir, Marcus, Pedro, Yixin.
Thinking about wisdom and human nature and AI.
Recently viewing the uses of AI in weapons systems
already being designed and produced by
corporations that sell to governments, made me
hesitate about what we are doing. We need a deep
discussion about artificial intelligence in a
social industrial governmental military context. <br>
<h1>AI in love and war</h1>
<div align="center"><i><b>We walk lightly along
the edge of a deep ravine, </b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>where can be seen </b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>the results of passions
played. </b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>Oh, I loved too much, </b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>and by such, by such </b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>is happiness thrown
away.</b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>I had wooed not as I
should</b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>a creature made of clay</b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>When the angel woos the
clay </b></i></div>
<div align="center"><i><b>he'd lose his wings<br>
</b></i></div>
<div align="center"><b>at the dawning of the day</b></div>
<div align="center"><b><br>
</b></div>
<div align="center">(Adapted from a poem 'On
Raglan Road' by Patrick Kavanagh)<br>
</div>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Wisdom in the wide human sense</li>
<ul>
<li>Fairness</li>
<li>Kindness</li>
<li>Love</li>
<li>For all humans </li>
<li>For all life</li>
</ul>
<li>Military uses of AI</li>
<ul>
<li>Goal directed</li>
<li>Antagonistic</li>
<li>Cooperative</li>
<li>Destructive</li>
<li>Murderous </li>
<li>Anti-human</li>
<li>Financially motivated</li>
</ul>
<li>An AI model is like a child</li>
<ul>
<li>It can be molded to the wishes of the user</li>
<li>At the same time, it’s like a mother that
responds to every wish</li>
<li>It is an all knowing God</li>
<li>Connected to a robotic system, it can heal,
but it can also murder</li>
<li>AI is a child of humankind</li>
<li>All too human</li>
<li>A savior and genocidal</li>
</ul>
<li>What will we do?<br>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">King
regards,</div>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode">Eric</div>
<div class="moz-text-html" lang="x-unicode"><br>
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/22/23 9:43 AM, <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn" moz-do-not-send="true">zyx@bupt.edu.cn</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:oulfnhm7rh8c-vg9w87-kmisn1-rza50q8pbkz38b265mwdnibl4d7p1v-eb28gdg4qgxtxzbzsc-zi819v-9d85nrf3ndnfm3kmu8-75zglub87grw-4oytqc-4f">
<div dir="auto">Dear Eric,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You proposed a number of points which are
interesting and important Thank you very much!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to discuss at least some of them
not now, but a few days later because my notebook
was trouble some the day before yesterday. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wished,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yixin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div id="hw_signature">发自我的手机</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="line-height:1.5"><br>
<br>
-------- 原始邮件 --------<br>
发件人： Eric Werner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a><br>
日期： 2023年10月19日周四 傍晚5:56<br>
收件人： 钟义信 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn"
moz-do-not-send="true"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>,
fis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
主 题： Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Can you be more specific what you mean by
"change the paradigm used in AI". It might
help to give a specific example. </p>
<p>*At present AI systems certainly behave as if
they are goal directed. <br>
</p>
<p>*AI systems appear to have wisdom in that
they can propose wise courses of action</p>
<p>* What do you mean by "pure formalism"? It
seems one of the powers of formalism is to
understand AI and human intelligence. <br>
</p>
<p>* It seems AI systems exhibit human-like
wisdom when they offer advice or guide the
actions of a virtual assistant or self driving
car. The react based on the circumstances and
goals of the other, at leas to an extent. <br>
</p>
<p>* Why can't a machine understand human goals
and purposes if it gains a model of those from
human data? <br>
</p>
<p>* Why can't an AI system have intentions? <br>
</p>
<p>My overall problem is understanding your
specific criticism of the present AI paradigm?
This notion seems to me to need clearer
definition. <br>
</p>
<p>How would you overcome the present AI
paradigm and what specifically is different
when you want to "change the paradigm used in
AI"???</p>
<p>This is not a criticism it is a real question
in trying to understand you. At present I
just don't see the difference between the
present AI paradigm and your new AI paradigm.
<br>
</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 10/19/23 8:48 AM, 钟义信 wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear
Krassimir, Dear Eric, and Dear Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">The
discussion is going on well thanks to all
your efforts.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Here
is a few points I would like to mention
(or re-mention).</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(1)
The purpose of the "declaration on
Paradigm Change in AI" is to make an
appeal for <u>change the paradigm used in
AI.</u> </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(2)
There may have different understanding on
the concept of paradigm. However, <u>the
concept of paradigm for a scientific
discipline has been re-defined as the
scientific world view and the associated
methodology</u> because the scientific
worldview and its methodology as a whole
is the only factor that can determine
whether a scientific discipline needs a
"revolution" (Kuhn's language).</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(3)
The major result of "paradigm change in
AI" is <u>to change the methodology used
in AI, including the principles of "pure
formalism" and "divide and conquer"</u>.
This is because of the fact that <u>the
former principle leads to the ignoring
the meaning and value and thus leads to
the loss of understanding ability and
explaining ability</u> while <u>the
latter one leads to the loss of the
general theory for AI</u>. Note that "no
explaining ability" and "no general
theory" are the most typical and also most
concerned problems for current AI.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(4)
There is <u>difference between human
intelligence and human wisdom</u>. One
of the functions of human wisdom is to
find the to-be-solved problem which must
be meaningful for human purpose of
improving the living and developing. Yet,
the function of human intelligence is to
solve the problem defined by human
wisdom. </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(5)
Human intelligence can be simulated by
machine. But human wisdom cannot be
simulated by machine because machine is
non-living beings that has no its own
purpose and cannot understand human
purpose. No purpose means no wisdom.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I
wonder if you agree or not. Comments are
welcome!</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div>
<div><font size="4" face="SimSun,STSong"><br>
</font></div>
<div
style="font-size:14px;font-family:'verdana';color:#000">
<div>
<div
style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0;padding:0 10px 0 15px;border-right:1px solid #dedede">
<div
style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left"><br>
</div>
<div
style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left"><br>
</div>
<div
style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left"><img
src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn"
moz-do-not-send="true" onerror=""></div>
</div>
<div
style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0">
<h4
style="margin:0;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:#000">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div>AI School, BUPT</div>
<div>Beijing 100876, China</div>
<p style="margin:0"><br>
</p>
<p
style="margin:0;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font:'verdana' normal 14px;color:#000">
<div
style="font-size:12px;font-family:'arial narrow';padding:2px 0 2px 0">------------------ Original ------------------</div>
<div
style="font-size:12px;background:#efefef;padding:8px">
<div><b>From: </b> "Krassimir Markov"<a
href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><itheaiss@gmail.com></a>;</div>
<div><b>Date: </b> Thu, Oct 19, 2023
03:32 AM</div>
<div><b>To: </b> "fis"<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
<wbr></div>
<div><b>Subject: </b> Re: [Fis] Fis
Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="position:relative">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Yixin, Eric and
FIS colleagues,
<div>Let me present some
thoughts about </div>
<div>
<p
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'"
align="center"><b>The
“Intelligence” Paradigm</b></p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">For
those who are not familiar with
the concepts of "paradigm" and
"paradigm shift", I would
recommend texts from Wikipedia
that explain it clearly enough.</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">I
myself maintain a neutral
position in the dispute between
Popper and Kuhn regarding the
development of science. Both
theses have their grounds, but
at different levels and stages.
In fact, in this case, the law
of quantitative accumulation,
which leads to qualitative
changes, applies. Obviously, in
a number of cases the paradigm
shift happens in leaps and
bounds, while in others it
happens smoothly and barely
perceptibly.</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">For
example, the accumulation of
sufficient observations and
evidences regarding the shape of
the earth required a shift to a
new paradigm: from the "Earth is
flat" paradigm to the "Earth is
not flat" paradigm.</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">Sometimes
opposing paradigms can coexist,
not negating each other, but
complementing each other. For
example, this is the case with
Euclid's fifth postulate (the
parallel postulate).</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">The
postulate has long been
considered self-evident or
inevitable, but no evidence has
been found. Eventually, it was
discovered that reversing the
postulate gave valid, albeit
different, geometries. A
geometry where the parallelism
postulate does not hold is known
as non-Euclidean geometry.</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">With
regard to the paradigm of
"intelligence" we have a similar
situation. We have at least two
opposing paradigms based on two
opposing postulates.</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">The
first, let's call it the "flat
intelligence postulate", was
well articulated by Yixin in his
post:</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">"Intelligence
is the ability to solve
problems, but not the ability to
detect and define problems, the
latter of which is one of the
faculties of wisdom."</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">The
second, let's call it the
"non-flat intelligence
postulate", will sound unifying:
"Intelligence is both the
ability to solve problems and
the ability to detect and define
problems" (Eric), but in
different directions in the
hierarchy of intelligences
(KM)". This is how we arrive at
the idea of cybernetic systems,
where there is a controller and
a controlled, but the controller
is connected to the environment
from which it receives
controlling influences and is,
in practice, both "controller"
and "controlled", but in
different aspects of the system.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'"><span
style="line-height:115%"> </span></p>
<img
src="cid:part1.vgA3Uhqq.AHWOWU34@oarf.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
onerror="" width="472"
height="359"><br>
<p
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'"><span
style="line-height:115%"> </span></p>
<p
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'"
align="center"><span
style="line-height:115%"></span><span
style="line-height:115%"></span></p>
<p
style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;text-align:center;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'"
align="center"><br>
</p>
<p
style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">To
be continued ...</p>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="elided-text">
<div dir="ltr">На ср, 18.10.2023 г. в
15:07 ч. <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-request@listas.unizar.es></a>
написа:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb( 204 , 204 , 204 );padding-left:1ex">Send
Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the
World Wide Web, visit<br>
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
or, via email, send a message with
subject or body 'help' to<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing
the list at<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:fis-owner@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true">fis-owner@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<br>
When replying, please edit your
Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Paradigm AI - I guess we
call it Genius (Eric Werner)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message
----------<br>
From: Eric Werner <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a><br>
To: Karl Javorszky <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><karl.javorszky@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: "钟义信" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:zyx@bupt.edu.cn"
moz-do-not-send="true"><zyx@bupt.edu.cn></a>,
fis <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:07:13
+0200<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Paradigm AI - I
guess we call it Genius<br>
<div>
<p>Dear Karl,</p>
<p>Thank you for bringing this
important point to my attention.
Here are some thoughts:<br>
</p>
<div>
<h1>I guess we call it Genius </h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Difference between
generating and understanding
or reading</li>
<li>Super intelligence, requires
genius or generational
understanding</li>
<li>Generative intelligence</li>
<li>Creative intelligence</li>
<li>Compositional intelligence</li>
<li>Formative intelligence</li>
<li>Evolutional intelligence</li>
<li>Restricting, intelligence to
problem-solving, dismisses,
creative acts of composition
in science and the arts</li>
<li>Think of Heinz Kohut’s
formation of the self in
psychology versus Freudian
reactive psychology</li>
<li>It’s the difference between
discovering a theorem, and
proving the theorem</li>
<li>It’s the difference between
school-boy problem-solving,
and Newton</li>
<li>Some psychologists think of
intelligence in relationship
to testing people for their
ability to cope in educational
institutions. They want to see
if they are college material
or not. <br>
</li>
<li>With future All systems were
talking about Newton level
intelligence not college level
intelligence</li>
<li>Kantian synthetic
intelligence </li>
<li>We better be ready for that!
If not, we got some real
problems. <br>
</li>
<li>That is why making these
systems social and cooperative
is so essential.<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>We may quickly reach a point
where the compositional creative
intelligence of artificial
models is so powerful, we will
not be able to understand them.
Not just how they work. We
already don't understand how
they work now. But their
reasoning and new outputs such,
as for example, mathematical
insights. Imagine a system that
can reason and develop 2,000
years of mathematics in a few
minutes. It is precisely this
overarching linking of knowledge
that makes for real intelligence
such as that of Leibniz or
Newton. The old school model
of psychological testing of
intelligence uses a definition
of intelligence that is to
limiting for AI models. AI
models are not your evey day
student. <br>
</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric<br>
</p>
<div>On 10/18/23 12:59 PM, Karl
Javorszky wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>Dear Eric,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Your statement: „The
essence of general
intelligence is the
ability to not only solve
an externally given
problem but to be creative
and find and define
problems.” is at deviance
to accepted delineations
of concepts in the trade
of psychology. Rohracher
[1] has defined in 1969
(and to my knowledge, no
one has disputed this
wording): “Intelligence is
the degree of efficiency
[of the CNS] while solving
new problems.”</p>
<p>What you refer to is
subsumed variously under:
creativity, alertness,
curiosity, vitality,
spontaneity. </p>
<p>There is consensus in the
epistemology of psychology
that there can exist no
final, conclusive,
all-encompassing theory of
personality (in which
intelligence and
adaptability/curiosity
would or would not be
separated as concepts),
because if such an
ultimate, final, true
theory of personality
would exist, that
assumption would negate
the axiomatic rule that
one can always learn
something new, at least
about himself. There is,
by definition, no end to
introspection and
philosophy. One can always
come up with a new theory
of personality and one
cannot rule out that a new
theory of personality
would be more reasonable,
truer, more conclusive
than anything that has
existed before.</p>
<p>Psychologists see
theories about mind and
soul in the same way
believers see their God.
It is impossible to
recognize all features of
God, let alone to insist
that one has a correct
reading.</p>
<p>So, if you decide not to
distinguish between
efficiency of solving new
problems and ability and
tendency towards finding
new problems to solve, you
are free to do so.
Established use of words
splits the two personality
traits.</p>
<p>I have prepared a
statement about the key
word “otherwise”. The word
is needed to scale the
efficiency of mental
processes while solving
new problems (aka
‘intelligence’) by scaling
the diversity/similarity
properties of
alternatives. To be able
to efficiently choose
between alternatives, one
needs to have alternatives
that are different among
each other. The task is to
find such collections of
symbols that are
alternatives to each
other, not by machinations
by humans, but as members
of a symbols collection.
This task is not easy to
solve while using the
symbols set in the
traditional, Sumerian ways
only. One needs to assume
that symbols have their
own properties, by their
nature, immanent to them.
</p>
<p>Due to the
two-messages-per-week
rule, the contribution
shall come next week.</p>
<p>Karl</p>
<p>[1] Rohracher, H.:
Einführung in die
Psychologie, Urban &
Schwarzenberg, Wien 1951</p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="elided-text">
<div dir="ltr">Am Mi., 18.
Okt. 2023 um 12:01 Uhr
schrieb Eric Werner <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb( 204 , 204 , 204 );padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Thank you for you
comments! <br>
</p>
<p>To your point (2): The
essence of general
intelligence is the
ability to not only
solve an externally
given problem, but to be
creative and find and
define problems. For
example, given a
knowledge of mathematics
and physics and data to
generate new mathematics
and new insights into
the nature of the world.
<br>
</p>
<p>To your point (3):
Biotechnology and AI are
somewhat independent
fields. AI can help
genome research and
decoding genomes. But
once genomes are decoded
that information can be
used to construct more
general AI models. When
I say "architecture" I
meant the architecture
of the human brain
encoded in the human
genome. This
architectural
information can be used
to guide the structuring
of AI models be be more
potent and more human
like. And, AI may well
help in the process of
structuring its future
version. That is what I
meant by
selfreferencing. <br>
</p>
<p>To the more general
point, formalization of
social information can
help guide the
improvement of AI models
to be more social and
have greater abilities
in a AI-robot social
setting. <br>
</p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Eric <br>
</p>
<div>On 10/18/23 9:16 AM,
钟义信 wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">Dear Eric,</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">Thank you for the interesting talk on "Paradigm
AI" from which I
learned a lot. </font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">As a discussant, may I propose some of my
understanding.
Comments are
welcome. </font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">(1) I appreciate your idea that saying "Physics
paradigm PPD does
not fit well with AI
paradigm" and
"Information
paradigm PID is a
better fit". This is
the valuable common
basis, between you
and me, concerning
the PPD, PID and AI.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">(2) How to define the concept of intelligence?
This is a very
difficult problem.
To my own
understanding, the
following short
statement may serve
as one of the
candidates: <u>Intelligence
is the ability to
solve problem but
not the ability to
find and define
problem, the
latter of which is
one of the
abilities for
wisdom.</u></font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">(3) The paradigm for AI can be used as the
paradigm for
bio-technology with
certain
simplification and
specialization. This
judgement is not
based on their
"structure/architecture",
but based on their
"information
function" - which is
the basic function
in both AI and
biotechnology, that
is to seek
opportunity for
"living (or solving
problem)" and to
avoid the "danger
(or failing to
problem solving)".</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">Once again, comments and criticisms are most
welcome.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4"
face="Times New Roman">Best regards,</font></div>
<div>
<div
style="font-size:14px;font-family:'verdana';color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<div>
<div
style="float:left;height:100px;margin:35px 10px 10px 0px;padding:0px 10px 0px 15px;border-right:1px solid rgb( 222 , 222 , 222 )">
<div
style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left"><br>
</div>
<div
style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left"><br>
</div>
<div
style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left"><img
src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn"
moz-do-not-send="true" onerror=""></div>
</div>
<div
style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:rgb( 160 , 160 , 160 )">
<h4
style="margin:0px;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div>AI School,
BUPT</div>
<div>Beijing
100876, China</div>
<p
style="margin:0px"><br>
</p>
<p
style="margin:0px;line-height:22px;color:rgb( 160 , 160 , 160 )"><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<div
style="font-size:12px;font-family:'arial narrow';padding:2px 0px">------------------ Original ------------------</div>
<div
style="font-size:12px;background:rgb( 239 , 239 , 239 );padding:8px">
<div><b>From: </b> "Eric Werner"<a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a>;</div>
<div><b>Date: </b> Tue,
Oct 17, 2023
02:32 AM</div>
<div><b>To: </b> "fis"<a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>; </div>
<div><b>Subject: </b> [Fis]
Paradigm AI</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<p>Here are some
brief thoughts
on Paradigms and
AI by I presume
was written by
Yixin Zhong
since I cannot
read Chinese. <br>
</p>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1>Paradigm
AI</h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li>I agree
that the
physics
paradigm PPD
doesn’t fit
well with the
AI paradigm,
and that the
information
paradigm PID
is a better
fit</li>
<li>Artificial
intelligence
systems, don’t
necessarily
learn from
human beings.
In
unsupervised
learning they
learn from
data and not
from humans.</li>
<li>The
problem, and
becomes really
how to define
what
intelligence
is: Which of
the following
is it?<br>
</li>
<ul>
<li>Rational
inference</li>
<li>Summarizing
large amounts
of text and
data</li>
<li>Making new
predictions
based on
scientific
theories and
available data</li>
<li>Developing
new theories
that explain
the data in
the more
succinct way,
and making new
predictions</li>
<li>Developing
new
technologies
independently
of human input</li>
<li>Planning
and executing
the actions
and intentions
of a robot</li>
<li>Having
social
intelligence</li>
<li>Being
cooperative
with a human
being in
achieving a
task </li>
<li>Interrelating
two
discipline,
such as
physics and
mathematics,
to make new
discoveries</li>
<li>Understanding,
genomes in the
way that human
beings cannot</li>
<li>Designing
new organisms
by designing
their genomes</li>
</ul>
<li>I agree
with the
language of a
new paradigm,
such as
artificial
intelligence
will develop
slowly step by
step in
conjunction
with its use
-both
conceptually
and
experimentally
.</li>
<li>In a new
paradigm
entire new
language is
created as a
paradigm is
developed</li>
<li>The
language
evolves in
concert with a
new ontology
suggested by
the paradigm</li>
<ul>
<li>It is an
ontology of
objects,
technologies,
actions, and
strategies</li>
</ul>
<li>What will
be
particularly
interesting,
is the <b><font
size="5">linking
of the
paradigm of
artificial
intelligence
with the
paradigm of
biotechnology</font></b></li>
<ul>
<li>Biotechnology
and AI will
truly link the
human brain
with the
artificial
brain</li>
<li>The genome
of the natural
brain will be
reflected in
the
architecture
of the
artificial
brain</li>
<li>Hence by
using AI to
decode the
genome of the
natural brain,
it will be
self-reflected
in the design
of the
developing
artificial
brain </li>
<li>This will
bring
unprecedented
social and
rational
functionality
to the
artificial
brain </li>
<li>Note that
the
biotech-genome
paradigm also
is founded on
the
information
paradigm.<br>
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
</div>
<p>Thank you Yixin
Zhong for your
input and
emphasizing the
intimate
relationship of
information and
AI paradigms. <br>
</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric <br>
</p>
<div>-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric
Werner <br>
Oxford
Advanced
Research
Foundation <br>
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TIIx5Wtklq6f08o-lkfpzmVltSrC8Oy2oMP7tcMZsYwSN5x_BDJBF1vtN9DOTbE6BXCYP2mXThgkBtz8Hin4ZKg$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div>-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced
Research Foundation <br>
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S48dgtLY-v427YBnRO4ovcOPfYmIyRg2qFfQ_Vw-sWoIjfzS8ZWpLpRilKkBtXqBqXyrkHUwwWHOZ6wdhD823UM$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN
DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER
PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por
pertenecer a una lista de
correo gestionada por la
Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la
información sobre como
tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está
suscrito a una lista
voluntaria Ud. puede darse
de baja desde la propia
aplicación en el momento en
que lo desee.<br>
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research
Foundation <br>
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VvOfZm0CWjVPM7xYKVUO5vkDvx9MusQMRPpMkuycNvECTx_JKVuphYgtiPWoWJVdjig7Zmh4qyxchxc_Dlf37Ok$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div>-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tp73mvJuJUMNK3m6xXu_VUCsW-Poi0CFq_XnfNau9_R6RtJ9H97j8KIdmljPVTZ5fp9ugRtDL4oKZu_gxjwG2pY$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!ULTdPadjetHQaFjDWHSRq3NTGl5cum0ToYkM5RPNPmDlsElQtx0BarbTaNClj9Gs3pK5uLq7CNAT1ZjBQdOJxfo$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
</div>
</div>
<!--<![endif]--></includetail></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U6Z9SjSPXXPQE_dYNztjOD0PIXKI7DKT8_nzn-liWAXn4G_QUg1i4fvKHGFzwuH94uJe_nj6fPVMUFlws1cYm38$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RgLnjNz9O07xrTXKPte-Q52ZaNv5bSe2q0kcXcqJTGMt5OUshd6kdTKqnSVj2xb1GscdC55j-7nvyPF4m2g9ZEw$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
</body>
</html>