<div dir="auto">Dear Eric,<div><br></div><div>You proposed a number of points which are interesting and important Thank you very much!</div><div><br></div><div>I would like to discuss at least some of them not now, but a few days later because my notebook was trouble some the day before yesterday. </div><div><br></div><div>Best wished,</div><div><br></div><div>Yixin<br><br><br><br><br><div id="hw_signature">发自我的手机</div></div></div><div style="line-height:1.5"><br><br>-------- 原始邮件 --------<br>发件人： Eric Werner <eric.werner@oarf.org><br>日期： 2023年10月19日周四 傍晚5:56<br>收件人： 钟义信 <zyx@bupt.edu.cn>, fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>主 题： Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 12<br><blockquote>
<div>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Can you be more specific what you mean by "change the paradigm
used in AI". It might help to give a specific example. </p>
<p>*At present AI systems certainly behave as if they are goal
directed. <br />
</p>
<p>*AI systems appear to have wisdom in that they can propose wise
courses of action</p>
<p>* What do you mean by "pure formalism"? It seems one of the
powers of formalism is to understand AI and human intelligence. <br />
</p>
<p>* It seems AI systems exhibit human-like wisdom when they offer
advice or guide the actions of a virtual assistant or self driving
car. The react based on the circumstances and goals of the other,
at leas to an extent. <br />
</p>
<p>* Why can't a machine understand human goals and purposes if it
gains a model of those from human data? <br />
</p>
<p>* Why can't an AI system have intentions? <br />
</p>
<p>My overall problem is understanding your specific criticism of
the present AI paradigm? This notion seems to me to need clearer
definition. <br />
</p>
<p>How would you overcome the present AI paradigm and what
specifically is different when you want to "change the paradigm
used in AI"???</p>
<p>This is not a criticism it is a real question in trying to
understand you. At present I just don't see the difference
between the present AI paradigm and your new AI paradigm. <br />
</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric <br />
</p>
<p><br />
</p>
<p><br />
</p>
<div>On 10/19/23 8:48 AM, 钟义信 wrote:<br />
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear Krassimir, Dear
Eric, and Dear Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">The discussion is going
on well thanks to all your efforts.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Here is a few points I
would like to mention (or re-mention).</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(1) The purpose of the
"declaration on Paradigm Change in AI" is to make an appeal
for <u>change the paradigm used in AI.</u> </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(2) There may have
different understanding on the concept of paradigm. However, <u>the
concept of paradigm for a scientific discipline has been
re-defined as the scientific world view and the associated
methodology</u> because the scientific worldview and its
methodology as a whole is the only factor that can determine
whether a scientific discipline needs a "revolution" (Kuhn's
language).</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(3) The major result of
"paradigm change in AI" is <u>to change the methodology used
in AI, including the principles of "pure formalism" and
"divide and conquer"</u>. This is because of the fact that
<u>the former principle leads to the ignoring the meaning and
value and thus leads to the loss of understanding ability
and explaining ability</u> while <u>the latter one leads to
the loss of the general theory for AI</u>. Note that "no
explaining ability" and "no general theory" are the most
typical and also most concerned problems for current AI.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(4) There is <u>difference
between human intelligence and human wisdom</u>. One of the
functions of human wisdom is to find the to-be-solved problem
which must be meaningful for human purpose of improving the
living and developing. Yet, the function of human intelligence
is to solve the problem defined by human wisdom. </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(5) Human intelligence
can be simulated by machine. But human wisdom cannot be
simulated by machine because machine is non-living beings that
has no its own purpose and cannot understand human purpose. No
purpose means no wisdom.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">I wonder if you agree
or not. Comments are welcome!</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best regards,</font></div>
<div>
<div><font size="4" face="SimSun,STSong"><br />
</font></div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:'verdana';color:#000">
<div>
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</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left"><br />
</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0 0 0;float:left"><img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn" /></div>
</div>
<div style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0">
<h4 style="margin:0;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:#000">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div>AI School, BUPT</div>
<div>Beijing 100876, China</div>
<p style="margin:0"><br />
</p>
<p style="margin:0;line-height:22px;color:#a0a0a0"><br />
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font:'verdana' normal 14px;color:#000">
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:'arial narrow';padding:2px 0 2px 0">------------------ Original ------------------</div>
<div style="font-size:12px;background:#efefef;padding:8px">
<div><b>From: </b> "Krassimir Markov"<a href="mailto:itheaiss@gmail.com"><itheaiss@gmail.com></a>;</div>
<div><b>Date: </b> Thu, Oct 19, 2023 03:32 AM</div>
<div><b>To: </b> "fis"<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>; <wbr /></div>
<div><b>Subject: </b> Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105,
Issue 12</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="position:relative">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Yixin, Eric and FIS colleagues,
<div>Let me present some thoughts about </div>
<div>
<p style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'" align="center"><b>The “Intelligence” Paradigm</b></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">For
those who are not familiar with the concepts of
"paradigm"
and "paradigm shift", I would recommend texts from
Wikipedia that
explain it clearly enough.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">I
myself maintain a neutral position in the dispute
between Popper and
Kuhn regarding the development of science. Both
theses have their grounds, but
at different levels and stages. In fact, in this
case, the law of quantitative
accumulation, which leads to qualitative changes,
applies. Obviously, in a
number of cases the paradigm shift happens in
leaps and bounds, while in others
it happens smoothly and barely perceptibly.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">For
example, the accumulation of sufficient
observations and evidences
regarding the shape of the earth required a shift
to a new paradigm: from the
"Earth is flat" paradigm to the "Earth is not
flat"
paradigm.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">Sometimes
opposing paradigms can coexist, not negating each
other, but
complementing each other. For example, this is the
case with Euclid's fifth
postulate (the parallel postulate).</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">The
postulate has long been considered self-evident or
inevitable, but
no evidence has been found. Eventually, it was
discovered that reversing the
postulate gave valid, albeit different,
geometries. A geometry where the
parallelism postulate does not hold is known as
non-Euclidean geometry.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">With
regard to the paradigm of "intelligence" we have a
similar situation. We have at least two opposing
paradigms based on two
opposing postulates.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">The
first, let's call it the "flat intelligence
postulate",
was well articulated by Yixin in his post:</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">"Intelligence
is the ability to solve problems, but not the
ability
to detect and define problems, the latter of which
is one of the faculties of
wisdom."</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">The
second, let's call it the "non-flat intelligence
postulate", will sound unifying: "Intelligence is
both the ability to
solve problems and the ability to detect and
define problems" (Eric), but
in different directions in the hierarchy of
intelligences (KM)". This is
how we arrive at the idea of cybernetic systems,
where there is a controller
and a controlled, but the controller is connected
to the environment from which
it receives controlling influences and is, in
practice, both
"controller" and "controlled", but in different
aspects of
the system.</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'"><span style="line-height:115%"> </span></p>
<img src="cid:part1.vgA3Uhqq.AHWOWU34@oarf.org" alt="image.png" width="472" height="359" /><br />
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'"><span style="line-height:115%"> </span></p>
<p style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'" align="center"><span style="line-height:115%"></span><span style="line-height:115%"></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;text-align:center;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'" align="center"><br />
</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:'calibri' , 'sans-serif'">To
be continued ...</p>
<div><br />
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br />
<div class="elided-text">
<div dir="ltr">На ср, 18.10.2023 г. в
15:07 ч. <fis-request@listas.unizar.es>
написа:<br />
</div>
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Today's Topics:<br />
<br />
1. Re: Paradigm AI - I guess we call it Genius
(Eric Werner)<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br />
From: Eric Werner <eric.werner@oarf.org><br />
To: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky@gmail.com><br />
Cc: "钟义信" <zyx@bupt.edu.cn>, fis
<fis@listas.unizar.es><br />
Bcc: <br />
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:07:13 +0200<br />
Subject: Re: [Fis] Paradigm AI - I guess we call it
Genius<br />
<div>
<p>Dear Karl,</p>
<p>Thank you for bringing this important point to my
attention. Here are some thoughts:<br />
</p>
<div>
<h1>I guess we call it Genius </h1>
</div>
<ul><li>Difference between generating and
understanding or reading</li><li>Super intelligence, requires genius or
generational understanding</li><li>Generative intelligence</li><li>Creative intelligence</li><li>Compositional intelligence</li><li>Formative intelligence</li><li>Evolutional intelligence</li><li>Restricting, intelligence to problem-solving,
dismisses, creative acts of composition in
science and the arts</li><li>Think of Heinz Kohut’s formation of the self
in psychology versus Freudian reactive
psychology</li><li>It’s the difference between discovering a
theorem, and proving the theorem</li><li>It’s the difference between school-boy
problem-solving, and Newton</li><li>Some psychologists think of intelligence in
relationship to testing people for their ability
to cope in educational institutions. They want
to see if they are college material or not. <br />
</li><li>With future All systems were talking about
Newton level intelligence not college level
intelligence</li><li>Kantian synthetic intelligence </li><li>We better be ready for that! If not, we got
some real problems. <br />
</li><li>That is why making these systems social and
cooperative is so essential.<br />
</li></ul>
<p>We may quickly reach a point where the
compositional creative intelligence of artificial
models is so powerful, we will not be able to
understand them. Not just how they work. We
already don't understand how they work now. But
their reasoning and new outputs such, as for
example, mathematical insights. Imagine a system
that can reason and develop 2,000 years of
mathematics in a few minutes. It is precisely this
overarching linking of knowledge that makes for
real intelligence such as that of Leibniz or
Newton. The old school model of psychological
testing of intelligence uses a definition of
intelligence that is to limiting for AI models. AI
models are not your evey day student. <br />
</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric<br />
</p>
<div>On 10/18/23 12:59 PM, Karl Javorszky wrote:<br />
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>Dear
Eric,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Your statement: „The
essence of general intelligence is the
ability to not only solve an externally
given problem but to be creative and find
and define problems.” is at deviance to
accepted delineations of concepts in the
trade of psychology. Rohracher [1] has
defined in 1969 (and to my knowledge, no one
has disputed this wording): “Intelligence is
the degree of efficiency [of the CNS] while
solving new problems.”</p>
<p>What you refer to is
subsumed variously under: creativity,
alertness, curiosity, vitality, spontaneity.
</p>
<p>There is consensus in the
epistemology of psychology that there can
exist no final, conclusive, all-encompassing
theory of personality (in which intelligence
and adaptability/curiosity would or would
not be separated as concepts), because if
such an ultimate, final, true theory of
personality would exist, that assumption
would negate the axiomatic rule that one can
always learn something new, at least about
himself. There is, by definition, no end to
introspection and philosophy. One can always
come up with a new theory of personality and
one cannot rule out that a new theory of
personality would be more reasonable, truer,
more conclusive than anything that has
existed before.</p>
<p>Psychologists see
theories about mind and soul in the same way
believers see their God. It is impossible to
recognize all features of God, let alone to
insist that one has a correct reading.</p>
<p>So, if you decide not to
distinguish between efficiency of solving
new problems and ability and tendency
towards finding new problems to solve, you
are free to do so. Established use of words
splits the two personality traits.</p>
<p>I have prepared a
statement about the key word “otherwise”.
The word is needed to scale the efficiency
of mental processes while solving new
problems (aka ‘intelligence’) by scaling the
diversity/similarity properties of
alternatives. To be able to efficiently
choose between alternatives, one needs to
have alternatives that are different among
each other. The task is to find such
collections of symbols that are alternatives
to each other, not by machinations by
humans, but as members of a symbols
collection. This task is not easy to solve
while using the symbols set in the
traditional, Sumerian ways only. One needs
to assume that symbols have their own
properties, by their nature, immanent to
them. </p>
<p>Due to the
two-messages-per-week rule, the contribution
shall come next week.</p>
<p>Karl</p>
<p>[1]
Rohracher, H.: Einführung in die
Psychologie, Urban & Schwarzenberg,
Wien 1951</p>
</div>
</div>
<br />
<div class="elided-text">
<div dir="ltr">Am Mi., 18.
Okt. 2023 um 12:01 Uhr schrieb Eric Werner
<eric.werner@oarf.org>:<br />
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb( 204 , 204 , 204 );padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Yixin,</p>
<p>Thank you for you comments! <br />
</p>
<p>To your point (2): The essence of general
intelligence is the ability to not only
solve an externally given problem, but to
be creative and find and define problems.
For example, given a knowledge of
mathematics and physics and data to
generate new mathematics and new insights
into the nature of the world. <br />
</p>
<p>To your point (3): Biotechnology and AI
are somewhat independent fields. AI can
help genome research and decoding genomes.
But once genomes are decoded that
information can be used to construct more
general AI models. When I say
"architecture" I meant the architecture of
the human brain encoded in the human
genome. This architectural information can
be used to guide the structuring of AI
models be be more potent and more human
like. And, AI may well help in the
process of structuring its future version.
That is what I meant by selfreferencing. <br />
</p>
<p>To the more general point, formalization
of social information can help guide the
improvement of AI models to be more social
and have greater abilities in a AI-robot
social setting. <br />
</p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Eric <br />
</p>
<div>On 10/18/23 9:16 AM, 钟义信 wrote:<br />
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Dear
Eric,</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Thank
you for the interesting talk on
"Paradigm AI" from which I learned a
lot. </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">As
a discussant, may I propose some of my
understanding. Comments are welcome. </font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(1)
I appreciate your idea that saying
"Physics paradigm PPD does not fit
well with AI paradigm" and
"Information paradigm PID is a better
fit". This is the valuable common
basis, between you and me, concerning
the PPD, PID and AI.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(2)
How to define the concept of
intelligence? This is a very difficult
problem. To my own understanding, the
following short statement may serve as
one of the candidates: <u>Intelligence
is the ability to solve problem but
not the ability to find and define
problem, the latter of which is one
of the abilities for wisdom.</u></font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><u><br />
</u></font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">(3)
The paradigm for AI can be used as the
paradigm for bio-technology with
certain simplification and
specialization. This judgement is not
based on their
"structure/architecture", but based
on their "information function" -
which is the basic function in both AI
and biotechnology, that is to seek
opportunity for "living (or solving
problem)" and to avoid the "danger (or
failing to problem solving)".</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Once
again, comments and criticisms are
most welcome.</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br />
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div>
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:'verdana';color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<div>
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</div>
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</div>
<div style="max-height:150px;margin:35px 0px 0px;float:left"><img src="https://exmail.qq.com/cgi-bin/viewfile?type=logo&domain=bupt.edu.cn" /></div>
</div>
<div style="float:left;padding-top:35px;line-height:22px;color:rgb( 160 , 160 , 160 )">
<h4 style="margin:0px;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;line-height:28px;color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">Prof.
Yixin ZHONG</h4>
<div>AI School, BUPT</div>
<div>Beijing 100876, China</div>
<p style="margin:0px"><br />
</p>
<p style="margin:0px;line-height:22px;color:rgb( 160 , 160 , 160 )"><br />
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 )">
<div style="font-size:12px;font-family:'arial narrow';padding:2px 0px">------------------ Original ------------------</div>
<div style="font-size:12px;background:rgb( 239 , 239 , 239 );padding:8px">
<div><b>From: </b> "Eric Werner"<eric.werner@oarf.org>;</div>
<div><b>Date: </b> Tue, Oct 17,
2023 02:32 AM</div>
<div><b>To: </b> "fis"<fis@listas.unizar.es>;
</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b> [Fis]
Paradigm AI</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<p>Here are some brief thoughts on
Paradigms and AI by I presume was
written by Yixin Zhong since I
cannot read Chinese. <br />
</p>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1>Paradigm AI</h1>
</div>
<ul><li>I agree that the physics
paradigm PPD doesn’t fit well
with the AI paradigm, and that
the information paradigm PID
is a better fit</li><li>Artificial intelligence
systems, don’t necessarily
learn from human beings. In
unsupervised learning they
learn from data and not from
humans.</li><li>The problem, and becomes
really how to define what
intelligence is: Which of the
following is it?<br />
</li><ul><li>Rational inference</li><li>Summarizing large amounts
of text and data</li><li>Making new predictions
based on scientific theories
and available data</li><li>Developing new theories
that explain the data in the
more succinct way, and
making new predictions</li><li>Developing new
technologies independently
of human input</li><li>Planning and executing the
actions and intentions of a
robot</li><li>Having social intelligence</li><li>Being cooperative with a
human being in achieving a
task </li><li>Interrelating two
discipline, such as physics
and mathematics, to make new
discoveries</li><li>Understanding, genomes in
the way that human beings
cannot</li><li>Designing new organisms by
designing their genomes</li></ul><li>I agree with the language of
a new paradigm, such as
artificial intelligence will
develop slowly step by step in
conjunction with its use -both
conceptually and
experimentally .</li><li>In a new paradigm entire new
language is created as a
paradigm is developed</li><li>The language evolves in
concert with a new ontology
suggested by the paradigm</li><ul><li>It is an ontology of
objects, technologies,
actions, and strategies</li></ul><li>What will be particularly
interesting, is the <b><font size="5">linking of the
paradigm of artificial
intelligence with the
paradigm of biotechnology</font></b></li><ul><li>Biotechnology and AI will
truly link the human brain
with the artificial brain</li><li>The genome of the natural
brain will be reflected in
the architecture of the
artificial brain</li><li>Hence by using AI to
decode the genome of the
natural brain, it will be
self-reflected in the design
of the developing artificial
brain </li><li>This will bring
unprecedented social and
rational functionality to
the artificial brain </li><li>Note that the
biotech-genome paradigm also
is founded on the
information paradigm.<br />
</li></ul></ul>
</div>
<p>Thank you Yixin Zhong for your
input and emphasizing the intimate
relationship of information and AI
paradigms. <br />
</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Eric <br />
</p>
<div>-- <br />
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