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<div>Dear All, Here are some points I thought of this morning: My
thoughts on AI paradigm shift not yet ready. <br>
<h1>Eric Werner Thoughts on social brains and AI <br>
</h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li>Interesting that you should mention the cell. I have
developed softer that simulates the growth of multicellular
systems, including cancer. One example is a cell signaling
cancer were cells divide, depending on whether they receive
certain signals or not. I have attached a photo. The cells
have the capacity to grow exponentially (explosive cancer) but
do not since they are dependent on receiving signals in order
to act. In the simulation, the cells are governed by their
cancer networks encoded in their Genome-DNA. The cells have
the capacity for interacting with other cells by way of cell
signaling and cell to cell physics. I view the cells as being
social agents that interact by way of communication, and that
have intentional states that are in part encoded in their
genomes.</li>
<li>There are different ways of defining the notion of
intention. Intentional stage can be a set of strategies that
are consistent with the intentions of the agent. I know this
is circular but just for explanatory purposes. Another way is
to define intentions directly by way of constructing them out
of more basic partial strategies. </li>
<li>Particularly interesting is that my theory of intentions,
links information, states of the agent to their intentional
states. This is done by way of the notion of ability,
informally defining ability, and agent can do some thing if
the agent has a strategy to do that some thing. For example,
when I say I can beat you in 10 moves in chess, that means
that I have a strategy that no matter what you do I am able to
win after 10 moves. Chess is a game of perfect information. In
games of partial information the existence of strategies
depends on the existence of sufficient information. Therefore
information, its existence is a necessary condition for the
existence of strategies. Information directly creates
strategies making intentional states of agents possible.</li>
<li>Given the agent has a strategy as information for its
existence, it does not mean that the agent will follow that
strategy. Their emotional, utilitarian rationality comes into
play. </li>
<li>So we have to distinguish between the execution of a
strategy and having a strategy available.</li>
<li>As I said, I’m concerned with the minimal conditions that
make a society possible at all. There I’m thinking about
humans social communication, animal communication and cell
communication.</li>
<li>So communication theory, fundamentally involves information,
intention, and value. Value, of course involves emotions.</li>
<li>Because of my interest and embryological development. I have
also worked on all the brain functions in relation to
intention information and value. I remember when teaching in
Africa, a friend of mine TOM TOBIAS and the beds on the nature
of intention in the brain. He was investigating the neurons he
had discovered that fire when the monkey intends to pick
something up before he actually picks it up. With high hopes
he came to Africa from Japan specifically because he thought
there would be monkeys there for his research. Unfortunately
discovered that the monkeys had all been eaten. So is left
discussing the notion of intention with me rather than doing
the experiments. </li>
<li>Relating to artificial intelligence systems, if we’re going
to make them behave appropriately and socially acceptable
ways, then we better understand the nature of intention the
nature of communication and the nature of how the mind works.
I think we can do this best by understanding how minimal
systems work. And investigating how the brain works in humans,
animals, vertebrates, and even insects. </li>
<li>The power of formal approaches is that they are by their
very nature, simple, far simpler than our vague human
cognition. </li>
<li>It may be difficult to separate artificial intelligence from
artificial social intelligence. If by artificial intelligence
being mean, an intelligence, that is purely, rational, given
certain assumptions makes deductions. It is just a kind of
inference machine, but reasoning is more than that.
Fortunately, or unfortunately the scientific rational process
is a highly social and political process.</li>
<li><br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<h1>My theory of the social architecture of the brain</h1>
</div>
<ul>
<li>The actual brain architecture</li>
<li>The connectome</li>
<li>Historical theories of semantics meaning</li>
<ul>
<li>Based on the logical view of information</li>
<li>Ignored the social aspect of intention</li>
<li>Ignored social information</li>
<li>And that through the world consists of facts</li>
<li>Described by assertions of a true or false</li>
<li>My first theory of information and communication was
influenced by this concept, where communication
consists of operators on information states. This was
influenced by quantum mechanics and von Neumann’s
Mathematical foundations of quantum mechanics.</li>
<li>Through the influence of Habermas, and I realize
that the most information or much of information
consists of statements that are not true or faults,
but rather involve intentions of agents</li>
<li>So it is with the social brain much of its
processing is involved with the processing of
intentions</li>
<li>Anamystic world</li>
<li>Social brain networks</li>
<li><br>
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
</div>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
<p></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/23 12:44 PM, Krassimir Markov
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKEQgkzO5upWHGZC-StQG_rNC332Tgo4j-kZNee4D=iarRwVfQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Pedro, Yixin and Eric,<br>
Thank you for your ideas.<br>
I follow the discussions in FIS with interest.<br>
The diversity of ideas is inspiring and stimulating.<br>
It is very important for me to know your understanding of
"intelligence", "social intelligence", "social information".<br>
Please, if possible, give your definitions of these terms.
<div>I think it is important to discuss later separately the
concepts of "artificial intelligence" and "artificial social
intelligence", since there are different aspects and points of
view to the emergence, goals and development of these
scientific fields.<br>
With respect,<br>
Krassimir<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На пт, 13.10.2023 г. в 15:48
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. FIS Discussion Session on AI (Pedro C. Mariju?n)<br>
2. Re: FIS Discussion Session on AI (Karl Javorszky)<br>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: "Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a
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Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:10:29 +0200<br>
Subject: [Fis] FIS Discussion Session on AI<br>
<div> Dear FIS Colleagues,
<p>Many thanks to Yixin and Eric for their contributions.
Both represent interesting (partial) approaches to the
brave new world that AI and related technologies are in
the process of enacting. <br>
</p>
I had the opportunity to briefly discuss with Yixin on the
AI Paradigm. My basic point of view is that we all are still
ignoring the general nature of intelligence.<br>
There is a biological root (exactly, cellular) that very few
people consider and try to connect with neuronal or social
manifestations of intelligence. <br>
Failing to see the way the living cell strategically
organizes its processing resources to enact a life cycle,
means leaving in the pure air the crucial use of our own
informational resources to, yes, advance our own lives.<br>
<br>
Eric's contribution is an step on that direction, but within
the formal approaches to info/meaning/knowledge.
Insufficient thus.<br>
The problem is that we as individuals disappear from the
scientific-technological landscape --only left for
datafication, for control.<br>
The human life cycle's global intelligence is mainly handled
via (mostly social) emotions, also an ill-defined,
ill-understood territory in science... <br>
That our social emotions are completely misunderstood and
mishandled at the social level is horribly seen these
days/months/years...<br>
<p>I disagree with the critical, negativist approaches to
AI, which I think has a great merit and transformative
possibilities --- if, and only if, it is accompanied by a
deep scientific change. <br>
</p>
Call it new paradigm, social information or whatever. I see
more alive than ever the original goals of this list 25
years ago: Foundations of Information Science!<br>
<p>Best wishes to all,</p>
Pedro<br>
----------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
FIS Coordination<br>
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To: "Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:46:42 +0200<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS Discussion Session on AI<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for reopening our long
discussion, and with such high-quality
position statements as we have read from respected <span
style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">researchers</span><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">
<b>Yixin
Zhong</b>.and <b>Eric Werner</b></span>.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric Werner uses an approach to a
system of interacting
entities which is rooted in empirical research. We are
invited to share and cooperatively
develop a concept that describes the functioning of
intelligence as a process
of information management. Nature is performing the
trick, therefore, so I
understand Eric, we should be able to translate the
interaction patterns in
symbolic denotation. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yixin Zhong presents us with a formal
treatise. In it,
almost in the form of a check-list, requirements are
elaborated which give form
and delineation to an explanatory system which shows us
the mechanism of
Artificial Intelligence to be subject to rational rules.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The formal approach invites one to go
through each paragraph
and state agreement and provide details. Such a work
would be too tiresome and
lengthy, and would go too much in detail for the present
phase of this session’s
discussion. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please allow me to present a
viewpoint which could appear to
some as a gate-crashing, introducing a third variation
on a theme, without
being invited to do so. The synthesis which now follows
should better be
understood as a 3<sup>rd</sup> movement of a music which
rephrases and
integrates the themata of the previous two movements. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The <b>paradigm shift</b> comes from
a new understanding of
the basic rules of Nature. There is a precedent to its
main thesis, Pythagoras.
According to the Pythagorean perspective of the world,
there exists an inner
harmony in Nature, which is potentially recognizable.
The main entrance into an
edifice of understanding Nature is given to us by means
of the numbers. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is in fact so. Eric refers to
Wittgenstein and language
logic as cornerstones of his argumentation. Advances in
technology have
permitted us to expand and partly rewrite Wittgenstein’s
work. A falling apple
and paper and pencil were sufficient to establish rules
that govern inanimate
objects. One needs a computer to decipher the rules that
govern Nature in biologic
contexts. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The problem is not that there would
be no rational doors and
windows into the mysteries of intelligence, artificial
or not. The first
problem is, that the voice of reason speaks in a
whisper. The real impediment opposing
reason is that the voice insinuates <i>unthinkable,
unconventional, unheard-of </i>contents, which do not
appear to have a context.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The situation is today similar to
that which greeted Gregor
Mendel. Having found a pattern (of hereditary traits, in
his case), having
tried to alert the scientific establishment to the
importance of the pattern was
not igniting a heap of highly charged attention,
groundbreaking interest,
because the questions were not arranged such that their
interrelation (by means
of that pattern Mendel was trying to sell) could have
reached a critical mass
of curiosity and intellectual challenge.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Today, the green and yellow peas are
not laboriously planted
in the garden of the abbey. They are instead named <i>a,b
</i>and are entries in a cell in a database. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The patterns that yellow and green <i>a,b
</i>produce once one gives them an experimental
workover, are more
than fascinating. They are fundamental.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The convoluted interrelations among
symbols that describe the
concepts and appearances of the mental construct
‘information, intelligence, alternatives’
etc. can easily be read off the natural numbers, if one
uses them as <i>pairs (a,b) </i>which are individuals.
We
use simple sorting and ordering operations to produce
interrelated chains of occurrences,
which is what we actually look for when discussing
information, intelligence,
alternatives, choices, predictability and so forth. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There exists a numbering-counting
system that works on
assemblies of symbols that are in their entirety a
Whole. The Whole as a unit includes
the concept of something like the strength of belonging
together. This
fundamental property of the symbols system, that its
members indeed do have
some external (objectively existing) relationships among
each other, the
discovery of numerical extents of this collagen-like
natural ‘force’, is a
great revindication of Pythagoras (and of animistic
religions). The sober S&T
(Science and Technology) facts are easy to reproduce on
one’s own computer. The
key to the measure of consistency lies in a small detail
of the procedure of
resorting objects, namely that the individual objects
team up into linear
sequences, which are called <b>cycles, </b>in
the course of a reorder. We credit each individual with
a proportionate amount of
the resources of the cycles the element is a member of.
The cycle as such is
both the abstract summation over all its members, and
also the individual
extents that remain a property of each element. We
suggest the name of <b>liaison </b>for a collection of
data referring
to the extents of the <b>liens </b>elements
are bonded with each other due to being members of one
specific cycle during
one specific reorder. The numeric property of <b>alliances
</b>among members in a situation of indecision, whether
reorder A ↔ B or rather C ↔
D is currently taking place, gives a market-value depth
to the calculations
conducted using the traditional methods.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The patterns are here and claim
recognition. This is what
Mendel kept saying. Once <b><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Yixin
Zhong</span></b><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">.and
<b>Eric Werner</b></span> familiarize themselves
with calculating alliance weights and factors, they will
find a grandiosely
simple but very potent and versatile tool for their
further research. The
paradigm change is to look at the back side of the
elementary Sumerian units, and
discover that there are distinguishing symbols etched
there, which can be read
if one uses <i>two </i>of the elements
together. An element with properties <i>(a,b)
</i>will be on position <i>k<sub>1</sub> </i>when
sorted on <i>[</i><i>α,</i><i>β] </i>and will be on
position <i>k<sub>2</sub> </i>when
sorted on <i>[</i><i>γ,</i><i>δ]. </i>How does it get
from here to there? How much
lien bonds the element to its allies (‘co-cyclists’,
members of the same
cycle)?<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the hope to have contributed to
the subject of the
present session,<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks again for the well-written and
convincing papers,<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karl<span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Fr., 13. Okt. 2023 um
13:11 Uhr schrieb Pedro C. Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> Dear FIS Colleagues,
<p>Many thanks to Yixin and Eric for their
contributions. Both represent interesting (partial)
approaches to the brave new world that AI and related
technologies are in the process of enacting. <br>
</p>
I had the opportunity to briefly discuss with Yixin on
the AI Paradigm. My basic point of view is that we all
are still ignoring the general nature of intelligence.<br>
There is a biological root (exactly, cellular) that very
few people consider and try to connect with neuronal or
social manifestations of intelligence. <br>
Failing to see the way the living cell strategically
organizes its processing resources to enact a life
cycle, means leaving in the pure air the crucial use of
our own informational resources to, yes, advance our own
lives.<br>
<br>
Eric's contribution is an step on that direction, but
within the formal approaches to info/meaning/knowledge.
Insufficient thus.<br>
The problem is that we as individuals disappear from the
scientific-technological landscape --only left for
datafication, for control.<br>
The human life cycle's global intelligence is mainly
handled via (mostly social) emotions, also an
ill-defined, ill-understood territory in science... <br>
That our social emotions are completely misunderstood
and mishandled at the social level is horribly seen
these days/months/years...<br>
<p>I disagree with the critical, negativist approaches
to AI, which I think has a great merit and
transformative possibilities --- if, and only if, it
is accompanied by a deep scientific change. <br>
</p>
Call it new paradigm, social information or whatever. I
see more alive than ever the original goals of this list
25 years ago: Foundations of Information Science!<br>
<p>Best wishes to all,</p>
Pedro<br>
----------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
FIS Coordination<br>
<i>FIS Archives last 10 years:</i><br>
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<td
style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Libre
de virus.<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T36sXrYk4lzPAQiTwHKyZNbaNNeoqQbLIdxVoB7FbVSiGQA22R-YQANJqj4RWnlhFQdWizx9ll8ji60lmqpNQNLz2P4h$"
style="color:rgb(68,83,234)" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.avast.com</a></td>
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<a
href="#m_489427933717652855_m_1969789417002832921_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"
width="1" height="1" moz-do-not-send="true"> </a></div>
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<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos
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href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
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Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud.
puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el
momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TPGMLLA0eQ-GFJo2oy_Tc_dLr-kF6cSxGHZNjr8jlMHW1dNtKNxwxUOh5kfu6HNTnwKWdjzqjyU1xm8oc0kz3Tw$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
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