<div dir="ltr">Dear Pedro, Yixin and Eric,<br>Thank you for your ideas.<br>I follow the discussions in FIS with interest.<br>The diversity of ideas is inspiring and stimulating.<br>It is very important for me to know your understanding of "intelligence", "social intelligence", "social information".<br>Please, if possible, give your definitions of these terms.<div>I think it is important to discuss later separately the concepts of "artificial intelligence" and "artificial social intelligence", since there are different aspects and points of view to the emergence, goals and development of these scientific fields.<br>With respect,<br>Krassimir<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">На пт, 13.10.2023 г. в 15:48 ч. <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>> написа:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. FIS Discussion Session on AI (Pedro C. Mariju?n)<br>
2. Re: FIS Discussion Session on AI (Karl Javorszky)<br>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "'fis'" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>Cc: <br>Bcc: <br>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:10:29 +0200<br>Subject: [Fis] FIS Discussion Session on AI<br>
<div>
Dear FIS Colleagues,
<p>Many thanks to Yixin and Eric for their contributions. Both
represent interesting (partial) approaches to the brave new world
that AI and related technologies are in the process of enacting. <br>
</p>
I had the opportunity to briefly discuss with Yixin on the AI
Paradigm. My basic point of view is that we all are still ignoring
the general nature of intelligence.<br>
There is a biological root (exactly, cellular) that very few people
consider and try to connect with neuronal or social manifestations
of intelligence. <br>
Failing to see the way the living cell strategically organizes its
processing resources to enact a life cycle, means leaving in the
pure air the crucial use of our own informational resources to, yes,
advance our own lives.<br>
<br>
Eric's contribution is an step on that direction, but within the
formal approaches to info/meaning/knowledge. Insufficient thus.<br>
The problem is that we as individuals disappear from the
scientific-technological landscape --only left for datafication, for
control.<br>
The human life cycle's global intelligence is mainly handled via
(mostly social) emotions, also an ill-defined, ill-understood
territory in science... <br>
That our social emotions are completely misunderstood and mishandled
at the social level is horribly seen these days/months/years...<br>
<p>I disagree with the critical, negativist approaches to AI, which
I think has a great merit and transformative possibilities --- if,
and only if, it is accompanied by a deep scientific change. <br>
</p>
Call it new paradigm, social information or whatever. I see more
alive than ever the original goals of this list 25 years ago:
Foundations of Information Science!<br>
<p>Best wishes to all,</p>
Pedro<br>
----------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
FIS Coordination<br>
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<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "Pedro C. Marijuán" <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>Bcc: <br>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:46:42 +0200<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS Discussion Session on AI<br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for reopening our long discussion, and with such high-quality
position statements as we have read from respected <span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">researchers</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"> <b>Yixin
Zhong</b>.and <b>Eric Werner</b></span>.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Eric Werner uses an approach to a system of interacting
entities which is rooted in empirical research. We are invited to share and cooperatively
develop a concept that describes the functioning of intelligence as a process
of information management. Nature is performing the trick, therefore, so I
understand Eric, we should be able to translate the interaction patterns in
symbolic denotation. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yixin Zhong presents us with a formal treatise. In it,
almost in the form of a check-list, requirements are elaborated which give form
and delineation to an explanatory system which shows us the mechanism of
Artificial Intelligence to be subject to rational rules.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The formal approach invites one to go through each paragraph
and state agreement and provide details. Such a work would be too tiresome and
lengthy, and would go too much in detail for the present phase of this session’s
discussion. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please allow me to present a viewpoint which could appear to
some as a gate-crashing, introducing a third variation on a theme, without
being invited to do so. The synthesis which now follows should better be
understood as a 3<sup>rd</sup> movement of a music which rephrases and
integrates the themata of the previous two movements. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The <b>paradigm shift</b> comes from a new understanding of
the basic rules of Nature. There is a precedent to its main thesis, Pythagoras.
According to the Pythagorean perspective of the world, there exists an inner
harmony in Nature, which is potentially recognizable. The main entrance into an
edifice of understanding Nature is given to us by means of the numbers. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is in fact so. Eric refers to Wittgenstein and language
logic as cornerstones of his argumentation. Advances in technology have
permitted us to expand and partly rewrite Wittgenstein’s work. A falling apple
and paper and pencil were sufficient to establish rules that govern inanimate
objects. One needs a computer to decipher the rules that govern Nature in biologic
contexts. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The problem is not that there would be no rational doors and
windows into the mysteries of intelligence, artificial or not. The first
problem is, that the voice of reason speaks in a whisper. The real impediment opposing
reason is that the voice insinuates <i>unthinkable,
unconventional, unheard-of </i>contents, which do not appear to have a context.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The situation is today similar to that which greeted Gregor
Mendel. Having found a pattern (of hereditary traits, in his case), having
tried to alert the scientific establishment to the importance of the pattern was
not igniting a heap of highly charged attention, groundbreaking interest,
because the questions were not arranged such that their interrelation (by means
of that pattern Mendel was trying to sell) could have reached a critical mass
of curiosity and intellectual challenge.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Today, the green and yellow peas are not laboriously planted
in the garden of the abbey. They are instead named <i>a,b </i>and are entries in a cell in a database. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The patterns that yellow and green <i>a,b </i>produce once one gives them an experimental workover, are more
than fascinating. They are fundamental.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The convoluted interrelations among symbols that describe the
concepts and appearances of the mental construct ‘information, intelligence, alternatives’
etc. can easily be read off the natural numbers, if one uses them as <i>pairs (a,b) </i>which are individuals. We
use simple sorting and ordering operations to produce interrelated chains of occurrences,
which is what we actually look for when discussing information, intelligence,
alternatives, choices, predictability and so forth. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There exists a numbering-counting system that works on
assemblies of symbols that are in their entirety a Whole. The Whole as a unit includes
the concept of something like the strength of belonging together. This
fundamental property of the symbols system, that its members indeed do have
some external (objectively existing) relationships among each other, the
discovery of numerical extents of this collagen-like natural ‘force’, is a
great revindication of Pythagoras (and of animistic religions). The sober S&T
(Science and Technology) facts are easy to reproduce on one’s own computer. The
key to the measure of consistency lies in a small detail of the procedure of
resorting objects, namely that the individual objects team up into linear
sequences, which are called <b>cycles, </b>in
the course of a reorder. We credit each individual with a proportionate amount of
the resources of the cycles the element is a member of. The cycle as such is
both the abstract summation over all its members, and also the individual
extents that remain a property of each element. We suggest the name of <b>liaison </b>for a collection of data referring
to the extents of the <b>liens </b>elements
are bonded with each other due to being members of one specific cycle during
one specific reorder. The numeric property of <b>alliances </b>among members in a situation of indecision, whether
reorder A ↔ B or rather C ↔
D is currently taking place, gives a market-value depth to the calculations
conducted using the traditional methods.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The patterns are here and claim recognition. This is what
Mendel kept saying. Once <b><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Yixin Zhong</span></b><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">.and <b>Eric Werner</b></span> familiarize themselves
with calculating alliance weights and factors, they will find a grandiosely
simple but very potent and versatile tool for their further research. The
paradigm change is to look at the back side of the elementary Sumerian units, and
discover that there are distinguishing symbols etched there, which can be read
if one uses <i>two </i>of the elements
together. An element with properties <i>(a,b)
</i>will be on position <i>k<sub>1</sub> </i>when
sorted on <i>[</i><i>α,</i><i>β] </i>and will be on position <i>k<sub>2</sub> </i>when
sorted on <i>[</i><i>γ,</i><i>δ]. </i>How does it get from here to there? How much
lien bonds the element to its allies (‘co-cyclists’, members of the same
cycle)?<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the hope to have contributed to the subject of the
present session,<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks again for the well-written and convincing papers,<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karl<span></span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Fr., 13. Okt. 2023 um 13:11 Uhr schrieb Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Dear FIS Colleagues,
<p>Many thanks to Yixin and Eric for their contributions. Both
represent interesting (partial) approaches to the brave new world
that AI and related technologies are in the process of enacting. <br>
</p>
I had the opportunity to briefly discuss with Yixin on the AI
Paradigm. My basic point of view is that we all are still ignoring
the general nature of intelligence.<br>
There is a biological root (exactly, cellular) that very few people
consider and try to connect with neuronal or social manifestations
of intelligence. <br>
Failing to see the way the living cell strategically organizes its
processing resources to enact a life cycle, means leaving in the
pure air the crucial use of our own informational resources to, yes,
advance our own lives.<br>
<br>
Eric's contribution is an step on that direction, but within the
formal approaches to info/meaning/knowledge. Insufficient thus.<br>
The problem is that we as individuals disappear from the
scientific-technological landscape --only left for datafication, for
control.<br>
The human life cycle's global intelligence is mainly handled via
(mostly social) emotions, also an ill-defined, ill-understood
territory in science... <br>
That our social emotions are completely misunderstood and mishandled
at the social level is horribly seen these days/months/years...<br>
<p>I disagree with the critical, negativist approaches to AI, which
I think has a great merit and transformative possibilities --- if,
and only if, it is accompanied by a deep scientific change. <br>
</p>
Call it new paradigm, social information or whatever. I see more
alive than ever the original goals of this list 25 years ago:
Foundations of Information Science!<br>
<p>Best wishes to all,</p>
Pedro<br>
----------------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
FIS Coordination<br>
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