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Dear Terry,</div>
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<br>
<div class="ContentPasted0">you are absolutely right. One of the most difficult problems in urban studies (as in many other fields related to applied aesthetics and ethics) this is the problem of distinguishing the immanent properties of an object and the human
experience about it. </div>
<div class="ContentPasted0">For example, for Renaissance architecture theorists (Giorgio Vasari), Gothic was the embodiment of everything dark, backward and ugly. But for the architects of the 18th and 19th centuries, Gothic turned into a model of grace and
beauty.</div>
<div class="ContentPasted0">The issue of objective value (ethical and aesthetic) is very important and relevant for the theory and practice of urban development. For example, how should we treat graffiti? Do they have aesthetic and ethical value and meaning?
It would seem that the Banksy phenomenon clearly indicates that graffiti is a full-fledged type of visual arts. But a lot of people continue to perceive graffiti as an ugly and disgusting phenomenon (and there are reasons for this).</div>
I would like to emphasize that the question of the essence of emotions and their properties is a very practical, applied question. Unfortunately, most theories in this area are too speculative and abstract in nature<br>
</div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Terrence W. DEACON <deacon@berkeley.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 March 2023 00:48<br>
<b>To:</b> konstantin lidin <lidinkl@hotmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com>; fis@listas.unizar.es <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] emotions</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Dear FIS colleagues,</div>
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">Many years ago I also attempted to come up with a multi-dimensional model of emotional experience,</div>
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">but with respect to what I argued were distinctively human emotional experiences</div>
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">due to the way symbolic processes enable atypical juxtapositions of otherwise mutually exclusive emotional dimensions.</div>
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">My hope was to be able to associate these relatively orthogonal dimensions with distinct neurological substrates.</div>
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I attach the diagram from my paper </div>
<div class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><span style="font-size:small">Deacon, T. (2006) The aesthetic faculty. In M. Turner & S. Zeki (eds.) The Artful Mind. Oxford</span></div>
University Press, pp. 21-53.
<div><span style="font-size:large">to add a few new dimensions to the conversation<span class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">.</span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:large"><span class="x_gmail_default" style="font-size:large">— Terry</span></span><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 4:37 AM konstantin lidin <<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
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Dear Pedro, dear colleagues,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I will try to answer the questions posed one by one.</div>
<div>1. On the the ratio of my model to the models of J. Russell, R. Plutchik, and Ortony A., Turner T. etc.
</div>
<div>All these models (including mine) use Cartesian space as a matrix for placing emotions relative to each other. All these models are derived from the Wilhelm Wundt model (1896).
</div>
<div>The main difference between my model and the previous ones is that I do not use the concept of valence of emotions. I believe that the attractiveness of any emotional state is not a property of the emotion itself. Valence (attractiveness) of an emotion
is a situational reaction of a particular person in a particular situation. For example, as a practical psychologist, I have many times encountered depressive disorders in my clients. In many cases, the treatment of depression was complicated by the fact that
the client enjoyed his experiences of emotions in the "sadness - disgust" area. His experiences of despondency, despair and disgust for life and for himself were of great value to him (that is, they had a high valence in Russell's terms). Similar effects were
described by Sigmund Freud.</div>
<div>Later I came to the idea that happiness (that is, the most attractive emotional state) has an absolutely individual character. Different people can be happy in anger, in fear, in sadness and in disgust. There is no emotional area that would not be happiness
for some person.</div>
<div>So, valence is not a parameter immanently inherent in emotion. This is the result of an experience by a particular person, which depends on the unique parameters of this person.</div>
<div>The idea that emotions can be divided into "good" and "bad" greatly hinders the use of models based on the concept of valence in applied fields (including urban studies). In particular, they are not able to explain the occurrence of specific problems that
arise in areas of compact residence of immigrants. For example, there are "little Vietnam" and "little Cambodia" in London, and these areas are characterized by unsanitary conditions and disgusting appearance (like many favelas in many large cities). Note
that in Vietnam or Cambodia itself, people live in much cleaner and neater villages. What prevents immigrants from at least reproducing the sanitary level of their habitual way of life that they had in their homeland?</div>
<div>Similar effects occur not only in connection with migrants. In any large city, there are areas whose residents turn the local urban environment into a garbage dump. What motivates people to do this?</div>
<div>If we accept that disgust can have a high valence for a certain group of people, I get a simple and clear explanation for such effects.
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks again for the questions. I hope my answer will be useful.</div>
In the following posts I will try to answer the rest of Pedro's questions.<br>
</div>
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<div id="x_m_-261503350486723083divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Pedro
C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11 March 2023 20:52<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] emotions</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Dear Konstantin and FIS Colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks a lot for all the ideas in your initial texts and in the responses. I would like to receive some further comments in a few issues (better if you take some time and different days to answer--also to attract other parties to the reflection).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>First, the James Russell's "circumplex model" (1980). That Cartesian diagram of emotions you present is an interesting variant of what he published involving "arousal" and "valence" as main coordinates. There has been quite a few development and changes
thereafter, with another relevant graphic model by Robert Plutchik (also in 1980!) known as the "emotion wheel", interesting to discuss the combinatoric of emotions. Unfortunately much of the later research has gone to describe more and more emotion lists,
larger and larger ones. So, it is very interesting to see your causal model related to the info flow. Although some reference to the Connectome and the role of the different areas could also be interesting (not only the synapse) to enlarge the panorama.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Second, about the life cycle. If emotions are what makes us human (which I agree), we would see an ontogenetic development of the emotional panoply, according to age, gender, and personality, and also with cultural modifications or channeling in the expression
of emotions. This should affect, I think, the configuration of that Cartesian diagram. And in this aspect the difference between sentiments and emotions has to be clarified regarding also their "permanence" in time.
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Third, the relationship with rationality. Reminding System1 and System2 reaction types described by Kahneman, there could be an interesting connection with our "identity", guarded by emotions as a sort of behavioral "immune system" that tries to preserve
our fitness. So, System 1 works as an emotional system that helps to preserve our immediate maintenance in time, in an innate way (like the innate branch of our immune system), later on complemented by System 2 "adaptive" mass of experiential learning and
rationality. In this link with identity, maybe the ideas of Sheri Markose and Lou Kauffman could dovetail here.
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And fourth, I am very interested in your application to urbanism (and other related aspects) and in general concerning the essential role of emotions in our daily life. In particular, the connection with urbanism has never been discussed in our list.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks again for your stimulating views (I leave the discussion on information metrics & dynamics for further exchanges).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best--Pedro<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>El 02/03/2023 a las 14:55, konstantin lidin escribió:<br>
</div>
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Thank you, Howard.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You are absolutely right, emotions are a powerful tool for understanding a person and the world. Unfortunately, they are very little studied (much less than cognitions) and mostly remain in the realm of the unconscious. The concept of "emotional intelligence"
is often found in the scientific literature, but it most often means only the skill of recognizing basic emotions by the facial expression of the interlocutor. Obviously, this is absolutely not enough. As a result, emotions are often perceived as some kind
of "demons" that prevent a person from thinking clearly and acting rationally, and from which it is desirable to get rid of altogether.</div>
<div>This is very strange and inconvenient, especially considering the huge role that emotions play in people's behavior and in the economy. We rarely realize how much the price of emotions occupies in the consumer price of our everyday purchases. Here is an
illustration - the price of coffee in its "natural" form, then the price of coffee preparation services, and then the price with the addition of prestige emotions (a fashion brand brings valuable emotions from the "joy - pride" group).</div>
In our daily life, spending on emotions accounts for about 90% of all expenses, and the richer the country, the greater this share</div>
<br>
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<div id="x_m_-261503350486723083x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Howard Bloom
<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank"><howlbloom@aol.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 02 March 2023 09:29<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank"><lidinkl@hotmail.com></a>; <a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" target="_blank">
13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a> <a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" target="_blank">
<13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>;
<a href="mailto:roy.morrison114@yahoo.com" target="_blank">roy.morrison114@yahoo.com</a>
<a href="mailto:roy.morrison114@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><roy.morrison114@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] emotions</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:black; font:14pt Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">excellent point on the importance of emotions. and on the commercial sale of emotions.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>i suspect that emotions are our fastest form of information processing. in other words, they have a wisdom of their own.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>with warmth and oomph--howard<br>
<br>
<br>
<div><font style="font-family:arial,helvetica; font-size:10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: konstantin lidin <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank"><lidinkl@hotmail.com></a><br>
To: Francesco Rizzo <a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" target="_blank">
<13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com></a><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>; Roy Morrison
<a href="mailto:roy.morrison114@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><roy.morrison114@yahoo.com></a><br>
Sent: Wed, Mar 1, 2023 1:53 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions<br>
<br>
<div id="x_m_-261503350486723083x_x_yiv2999675076">
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<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">Dear Francesco,
<div>indeed, it is difficult to understand such difficult ideas from such a brief message.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>For my part, I can add that emotions are a very popular commodity. For example, tourism is the sale of emotions of the "interest" group. Gambling is an industry of emotions of the group "excitement, risk". Cinema produces and sells emotions of a wide range,
from "joy - pride" (comedies, family films) to "disgust" (horror and punk films), and so on. All these are market sectors with a turnover of hundreds of billions of USD per year.</div>
<div>Note also that positive emotions (for example, such a kind of "joy - pride" emotions as prestige) often make up a significant part of wages in some areas.</div>
Unfortunately, emotions are still not taken into account in most economic models.<br clear="none">
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block; width:1174.62px">
<div id="x_m_-261503350486723083x_x_yiv2999675076yqt73527">
<div dir="ltr" id="x_m_-261503350486723083x_x_yiv2999675076divRplyFwdMsg"><font face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Francesco Rizzo
<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com" target="_blank"><13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com></a><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> 01 March 2023 23:49<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> konstantin lidin <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">
<lidinkl@hotmail.com></a><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>; Roy Morrison
<a href="mailto:roy.morrison114@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><roy.morrison114@yahoo.com></a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] emotions</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
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<div>Dear Konstantin, </div>
<div>I would like to make the following contribution: in my new economy it is not necessary to separate humanitarian information and natural information, since I adopt a single trans-information process based on the 3 surpluses or thermodynamic, genetic and semiotic-hermeneutic
information; that is, a theory of value underlying a single piece of information, consisting in giving or taking shape, measurable in bits of entropy (in natural-rational information and in neg-entropy (in emotional-human communication). So that the flow of information
related to emotion, can give rise to what I call emo-rationality. Thank you! Do I have to apologize for my (non) simplicity?Francesco<br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
Caro Konstantin,
<div>desidero dare il seguente contributo: nella mia economia nuova non è necessario separare l'informazione </div>
<div>umanitaria e l'informazione naturale, poiché adotto un unico processo di tras-informazione basato sui 3 </div>
<div>surplus o informazione termodinamica, genetica e semiotico-ermeneutica; cioè una teoria del valore sottesa </div>
<div>da un'unica informazione, consistente nel dare o nel prendere forma, misurabile in bit di entropia (nella </div>
<div>informazione natural-razionale e in neg-entropia (nella comu nicazione emozional-umana). Sicchè il flusso di </div>
<div>informazioni connesse all'emozione, può dar luogo a quella che io chiamo emo-ra-zionalità. </div>
<div>Grazie! Dobbo scusarmi per la mia (non) sempicità?</div>
<div>Francesco</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Il giorno mer 1 mar 2023 alle ore 09:11 konstantin lidin <<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" shape="rect" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">the calculation of the amount of information contained in one human personality is based on the following considerations:
<div>the number of nitrogenous bases in a DNA molecule is 3.2 billion. Each base contains two bits of information. In total, the amount of information in one DNA molecule is about a gigabyte (10^9);</div>
<div>all cells of the human body are different and, therefore, the information in each cell does not coincide with the information in other cells. Therefore, the amount of information in the body needs to be multiplied by the number of cells - about 10 ^ 14;</div>
<div>the total is 10 ^ 23 bytes, that is, one hundred zettabytes. Even considering that 99% of cellular information is repeated, the amount of unique information in a living organism is zettabytes. It is the amount of information per unit of mass that is the
fundamental difference between a living organism and an inanimate one.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Our model can be useful for the study of intrapsychic processes. Unfortunately, the format of a short message does not allow us to fully describe all the results obtained over twenty-five years of development of this model.</div>
<div>You are absolutely right; the human personality is complex enough that its individual fragments can experience different emotions at the same time. A person can simultaneously experience fear of a shark, tenderness and trust in it, sadness from his loneliness
in the middle of an endless ocean, and so on.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>The role of hormones and neurotransmitters in the movement of information through the nervous system has not been sufficiently studied. The processes occurring in the synaptic cleft are associated with the adaptation of the nervous system to the nature
of the flow of information. The balance of neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft corresponds to the characteristics of the information flow - for example, adrenaline promotes the passage of chaotic flows (emotion "fear"), and gamma-aminobutyric acid "adjusts"
the nervous system to weak information flows (sadness).</div>
Rapid and strong changes in the balance of neurotransmitters correspond to "emotional storms", which is so characteristic of young poets...<br clear="none">
</div>
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<font face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Roy Morrison <<a href="mailto:roy.morrison114@yahoo.com" shape="rect" target="_blank">roy.morrison114@yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> 01 March 2023 06:54<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" shape="rect" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" shape="rect" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; konstantin lidin <<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" shape="rect" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] emotions</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Konstantin</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I powerful and important take on emotions as experience of information flow. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Really appreciate "<span style="font-family:New; text-indent:47.2667px">In turn, we understand information as a structural aspect of the existence of matter, along with the inertial aspect (substance) and the dynamic aspect (energy). We believe
that information is no less material than matter and energy. "</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:New; text-indent:47.2667px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:New; text-indent:47.2667px"> and</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:New; text-indent:47.2667px"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:New; text-indent:47.2667px"><span style="text-indent:47.2667px">"The total amount of information contained on all media in all libraries, archives and other repositories of mankind is about a zettabyte (10^23 bits). About
the same amount of information contains one human personality."</span><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:New; text-indent:47.2667px"><span style="text-indent:47.2667px"><br clear="none">
</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="text-indent:47.2667px"><span style="text-indent:47.2667px"> From my experience as a lunatic, ok as a neurotic, the complexity of emotion is complicated by issues of what is conscious/ repressed/ unconscious.</span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="text-indent:47.2667px"><span style="text-indent:47.2667px">Your model making distinctions between Order-Chaos and Weak flow- Intense Flow does not fully explain issues of unconscious roiling repression this is driven in part by hormonal
emotional activation and repression. At the same time I recognize the common and shared emotional expression we share across species. </span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="text-indent:47.2667px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="text-indent:47.2667px">Watching video of a fisherman who saved a great white shark trapped it nets. The shark keep returning to the fishman's small boat for days. Shark rolled on her? back next to his boat so he could spoke her belly to
her great pleasure.Evolutionary we share common emotional expression and the similar brain chemicals.</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="text-indent:47.2667px"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="text-indent:47.2667px">Roy</div>
<div><br clear="none">
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</pre>
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<span class="x_gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="4" face="georgia, serif"><i>Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley</i></font></div>
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