<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Colleagues,<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very interesting points, and they all relate. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pedro: <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Catars (Albigenser) shall yet be recognized as martyrs
for the right cause. Their concept of duality is a dark mystery in contemporary
terms because the intellectual content had not been worked on, discussed,
restated, analyzed. I’d love to hear of an updated concise treatise about the
Catar idea of a basic split in the middle of the world. Their voice has been
terminated, but the idea keeps returning (<i>et
expellas furcam natura recurrit</i>).<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Lou: <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The idea of entries into a lexicon in which entries are by their
nature indexed and cross-referenced is what you point out as missing. This
person has repeatedly brought up the fact that, after some hocus-pocus with
natural numbers, one is in possession of a catalog of possible coincidences.
One can rank the possible coincidences according to their predictability, from
impossible over {slight, low, median, high} probably to certainty. This is a
numeric <i>Canto General</i>, enumerating all little pieces that can assemble into a
whole. The basic edition is some 23.000 x 136 x 72 x 71 cells of a table, in which
are the Lego pieces, of which now we can assemble anything that can be
assembled from the pieces in the table. (We have counted 46.260 cycles in our
basic tables.) The combinatorics among the elements (content of cells) of this
data set is what we talk about. This is as complete a library as there ever can
be one. Its contents are {phonemes, letters, words, sentences, phrases,
paragraphs, pages, chapters, essays, books, ideologies, logical systems}. The
nature of the units one uses depends on the focus. The cell contents are
probably of interest to quantum counting people. We discuss that level, which
is in an extra database, the Catalog of Possible Contemporaries. (The extra
database is for convenience only; its contents are aggregated cells from the
basic data set.) Later generations will presumably build up a further table
Forms and Shapes of Contemporary Coincidences, and then the real learning will
begin. (Like the Dictionary of Basic Fuseki, only far more generalized and <i>a+b=c </i>based.)<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It would be a heroic guess, which level of agglomeration of
basic facts would correspond to our ideas of ‘apple’, ‘warm’, ‘eat’. Bundles of
cycles form an archetype which can be remembered. There is a connection to the <i>semantic markers,</i> which build up an idea,
here. This level of agglomeration of basic facts has undergone several
transmutations and metamorphoses. Yet, the rules of the translations from one
system of values into a different system of values (an experience can be
differentiated, it is often referred to by the same name, an apple is something
that has the properties remembered) are subservient to a more basic set of
rules. The concept building rules are an implication (among many others) of the
facts that are the archaic rules. (They say: 'you can’t make bacon from a dog’.)
The general rules are still valid in the meta-databases which have their own
varied rules. (One cannot think illogical.) The descendants of certainties are
varied in form and content, but they all depend on the basic certainty, of
which they are an implication/deduction. There is an identifying tag on each
descendant, which allows a blockchain-like reverse accounting until one arrives
at <i>a=a, a+b=c, pos(k, reorder),
contemporary with(), etc. </i>markers which identify the path of the sequence
of steps this specific constellation can have been generated. The indexes are
given by Nature, as each member of each cycle in any reorder is exactly known. The
aggregation of elementary facts into meaningful signs of whatever is a
technique already well known by the applied sciences. The vocabulary of the 21<sup>st</sup>
century version of a homunculus is (in theory, potentially) rather detailed and
it contains (is based on) the relation of every possible fact to any other
possible fact. The nearness of spiders and butterflies can find a numerical
expression that relates it to the nearness of wolves and bears.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">An example: We play with cards, building towers on strategic
places. The Sumerian method counts the height of the stack of cards in each
position when evaluating the chances of the next move. The method we propose
here is to look at the face side of the cards too. This knowledge will bring no
advantages in the present game. It is even unthinkable to discuss the
individualities of the tiles that make up a tower under the rules of the game
we presently play. There is simply no such thing, in the rules presently
observed. Discovering inner relationships among tiles of different towers
brings a new dynamic to the game. The face side of the cards shows that it is
optimal to play with around <i>66 </i>units
of <i>136 </i>total, that the tiles/cards
are individuals, that they are ordered, and that they are ordered in several
ways, some of these orders being partly contradictory. What they demonstrate is,
that <b><i>there
is a web of relations </i></b>among units. One can use the natural web of order
relations to index and identify whichever discernible agglomerations one wants
to give a name to. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Terrence:<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Like in a good Zen koan, your answer is in your question.
You say: “ … relations … add a level of incompletability…”, “we have crossed
out of the realm of computation in any standard sense”. The solution, therefore
is, that “…complete conception of information … confront this challenge, or
else bracket such considerations as unanalyzed givens”. Brilliant observation. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is in this same sense that introducing a new level of
awareness and attention to details frankly outsteps the boundaries of counting
as known before and becomes a ‘finite automat’, based on combinatorics among
natural numbers during periodic changes. This is the set of tables mentioned
above. This numeric heap is indeed an unanalyzed given. There is no contradiction. The answer to all questions is not <i>42</i>, as some of us had wished, but the interplay among <i>~ 66 - ~ 70 </i>logical units. This is the
factually correct answer, generates several matrices and gives a reference grid
to anything and all. There is no soul visible in this numeric heap. The facts
of the matter remain the facts of the matter and nothing else. Gone is all the
transcendence. That the know-all is itself dumb is no contradiction.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That there appears to remain an unsolvable remainder is
detailed in Zen Flesh Zen Bones by Paul Reps.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karl: <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Let me contribute from my own field also something to beliefs,
religion, hope, etc. After 40 years in the profession, one believes to have
recognized the economy of the good word. We know from animals, that in a stress
situation, the animal disgorges any food not yet digested (next to lessening
its mass [for a possible flight] in other ways, too). One has the suspicion that a percentage of the population has discovered that to be near to such
persons who experience acute stress, has the advantage of being able to take
away parts of the still valuable matter the subject has disgorged. Maintaining
the feeling of stress in a dependent group maintains the feeling in the
subjects that they should get rid of something, in order to be lighter, in many
senses. He who helps you in crises, he contributes to your feeling of being
lighter after the encounter. The industry of providing comfort has a provider
side also, with its own interests and rules. It is reasonable to agree among
the providers of comfort that the comfort one provides is one and indivisible,
perfect and free of contradictions, all parts fitting as they should. The
concept is easy to agree on, is uniform and can be well communicated. No wonder
then, that the Catars were judged heretic. The complexity of a world view in
which the world is although one whole, contains parts, and that the parts do
not fit always smugly, would have overextended the didactic capacities of seminaries.
Keep the teaching simple, the audience is simple. The creation is perfect and
there are no inner contradictions and discongruencies within it. Such teaching fully
keeps within the Sumerian tradition. The comfort providing establishment had a debatable point in killing the Catars, discouraging by this precedent any research into diversity
and deviation as academic subjects as such. We have a neurological preference
for perceiving similarities over the perceptions of diversities. A true comfort helps the customer to feel good. We are hereditary dependent on the substance that gets generated as we process analogies, similarities, identities. Junkies everywhere.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the nice session.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karl<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Di., 31. Jan. 2023 um 15:41 Uhr schrieb Louis Kauffman <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>Dear Joseph,</div>Please note that computing at the present time is based on eliminating circularity at the base hardware level so that simple operations can happen reliably such as NOR gates.<div>The rest of computing, both hardware and software is related to recursion and hence to controlled circularity. A recursive process involves the repeated application of a transformation, coupled with a </div><div>count of that repetition so that stopping avoids an infinite loop. At the level of design we may create the recursion as a circular definition X = F(X) but this is reworked into x_{n+1) = F(x_{n}}, and the count on n is crucial for </div><div>the execution of the process. Other forms of circularity are avoided by rule. For example, one cannot put the file representing the desktop of your computer into another file. This is equivalent to avoiding self-referential paradox. Furthermore, in the structure of circuitry one concatenates basic elements such as NOR gates into graph structures with cycles (circularities) again in controlled ways (flip flop circuits for counting e.g.).</div><div>In biological systems there are many such cycles that are important for organic processes at all levels. If one understands by circularity, the presence of cycles in the graphical structure of things and processes, then one sees that circularity is a concept that is ubiquitous in information science.</div><div><br></div><div>We have an apparent contradiction that is not a contradiction! </div><div>The attitude that there should not be a place for circularity seems to be the same as saying </div><div>that it always needs to be noted and sometimes it needs to be controlled.</div><div><br></div><div>Note again Terry Deacon’s paragraph. He is not saying that there is no place for circularity, but rather that we have to enlarge our view of even circularity beyond the formal Goedelian self-reference.</div><div><br></div><div>"<span style="font-size:large">I can't resist commenting. The problem, of course, is that formal relations and models must be instantiated in some medium. But referential circularities that include reference to these media involve more than formal Gödelian circularities. They entangle epistemological and ontological relations in ways that add a level of incompletability that cannot be avoided when considering living and mental processes of interpretation. Thus, when we refer to "self" in descriptions of the "I" of human interpretive agency, or even when just describing bacteria as "self"-reproducing, we have crossed out of the realm of computation in any standard sense. Ultimately, I would argue, that any complete conception of information that includes the interpretation of referential and pragmatic attributes must confront this challenge, or else bracket such considerations as unanalyzed givens.</span><font size="4">”</font></div><div><br></div><div><font size="4">The matter of “crossing out of the realm of computation” is illustrated by the Penrose Thought Experiment.</font></div><div><br></div><div>Penrose Thought Experiment.</div><div><div>Suppose that “I” am a specific consistent Turing machine.</div><div>Then I can be encapsulated as a formal system S, and everything that I can prove can be proved by S and vice versa.</div><div>So now I examine the system S and prove Goedel’s incompleteness theorem for S. I produce a sentence G that cannot be proved by S, but such that I can prove G.</div><div>Since I and S have identical proving abilities, this is a contradiction. Therefore I am not one specific Turing machine.</div></div><div><br></div><div>This thought experiment led to a book by Roger Penrose (The Emperor’s New Mind), much debate and a second book (“Shadows of the Mind”) and so I certainly do not put this</div><div>forward as doctrine, but nevertheless, <span style="font-size:large">when we refer to "self" in descriptions of the "I" of human interpretive agency we have crossed out of the realm of computation in any standard sense.</span><span style="font-size:large"> </span></div><div><br></div><div>Very best,</div><div>Lou </div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 31, 2023, at 1:36 AM, <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:</div><br><div>Dear Terry, Dear All,<div><br></div><div>I agree with Terry. Circularity is an idealized concept that has no place in information science. </div><div><br></div><div>Machines instantiate circularity to all intents and purposes, give or take a few atoms of wear and some vibrations. Real complex processes do not.</div><div><br></div><div>As for self, as in "self"-organization, this is another idealized concept that fails to take into account hetero components in a process, actual or potential.</div><div><br></div><div>Why people tend to cling to binary concepts, including in the grounding of phenomena, is a question for psychology more than anything else.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Joseph<br><blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px">----Original Message----<br>From : <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a><br>Date : 30/01/2023 - 21:58 (E)<br>To : <a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" target="_blank">loukau@gmail.com</a><br>Cc : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a href="mailto:stanowskimariusz@wp.pl" target="_blank">stanowskimariusz@wp.pl</a>, <a href="mailto:nikitashk@gmail.com" target="_blank">nikitashk@gmail.com</a>, <a href="mailto:igamberdiev@mun.ca" target="_blank">igamberdiev@mun.ca</a><br>Subject : Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?<br><br><div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">
I can't resist commenting. The problem, of course, is that formal relations and models must be instantiated in some medium. But referential circularities that include reference to these media involve more than formal Gödelian circularities. They entangle epistemological and ontological relations in ways that add a level of incompletability that cannot be avoided when considering living and mental processes of interpretation. Thus, when we refer to "self" in descriptions of the "I" of human interpretive agency, or even when just describing bacteria as "self"-reproducing, we have crossed out of the realm of computation in any standard sense. Ultimately, I would argue, that any complete conception of information that includes the interpretation of referential and pragmatic attributes must confront this challenge, or else bracket such considerations as unanalyzed givens.
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">
— Terry
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">
On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:58 AM Louis Kauffman <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Most certainly!
<div>
All structures with any form have circularities. The simplest is one distinction and the back and forth between the whole and the division into apparent parts.
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
On Jan 30, 2023, at 1:35 AM, Karl Javorszky <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
Definitions are circular. Like crossing points in a web of a roads.
<div dir="auto">
<br>
<div dir="auto">
How nice it would be, if anyone would create (actually, find or discover) a web which connects units of the system to each other!?
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
Such an inner web of relations can easily be found and has been found and has been published. Here's once again.
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<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
Use a,b , a,b <= 16, a<=b as pairs. Each pair is the basic element . The cohort in which a,b have 16 different varieties is 136 strong.
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
Now order this collection. Then reorder. Pay attention to details.
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<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
You find cycles.
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<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
The cycles connect elements to each other in ways that will surprise you and cause torpor. In a catatonic regression, some people cease thinking. This will not be the danger in this case. You all are fit for the challenge of discovering relations.
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
The web of references you talk about is in existence. Appurtenances of elements to cycles give numeric data, with which other elements any given element is related by means of belonging to cycles of a different order aspect.
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
Ask and find your wishes already fulfilled. Just look what happens if you listen to people talking to you. Try conceptualising cycles.
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<br>
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Good luck!
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<div dir="auto">
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
Karl
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<div dir="auto">
<br>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">
On Mon, 30 Jan 2023, 09:08 Louis Kauffman, <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Dear Nikita,
<div>
First of all, lets be clear about definitions in the usual sense of the word. We define a term by relating it to other terms and to experiences.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
In a dictionary terms are defined in relation to other terms.
</div>
<div>
This often leads to circularity.
</div>
<div>
For example, If I look up “difference” in the dictionary I find that it means “not the same”.
</div>
<div>
If I look up “same” in the dictionary I find that it means “not different”.
</div>
<div>
The dictionary shows relationships of words and relies on our experience for many of the meanings.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
In mathematics we do not refer to experience in our definitions, but rather to axioms that delimit the relationships. Thus if P and Q are distinct points in Euclidean Geometry, then there is a line L uniquely
</div>
<div>
determined by P and Q so that P and Q are on that line L. This property is an Axiom of the Geometry. We do not specify what P and Q “are” or what a line “is”, but we have in mind certain models that do
</div>
<div>
satisfy these axioms. This is an efficient way to proceed for the ways of mathematical thinking. We even have certain kinds of definitions that partake of circularity. For example, I can say consider a group G generated by
</div>
<div>
elements a,b so that a = bab^{-1}. The equation I just wrote “defines” a in terms of itself. There is nothing wrong with this and we regard it as a constraint on the way a “behaves”.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
In mathematics we allow circularities as constraints and want definitions to be free of circularities. This amounts to a terminology for definitions that distinguishes them from constraints.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
I say that you cannot have a mathematical definition of distinction because the best we could ever do about distinction is to indicate a relationship or a constraint such as “we take the form of distinction for the form.”.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Eucid himself did not adhere to the present-day version of definitions in mathematics (after all he wrote in 500BC!). Euclid says that “A point is that which has no part.” and he says that “A straight line lies evenly upon itself.” Each of these statements has great insight, but requires much extra discussion and an understanding of the models for Geometry that are intended.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Just so the von Foerster sentence tells us that whatever an “I”, it is constrained to be a relation between itself and observing itself.
</div>
<div>
We appreciate this because we recognize it as a property of the “I” with which we are familiar.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
NOW, you say that you will take I as "a computing device that works according to a DNA program”. I see what you mean. I could regard myself as a computing device that works according to a DNA program.
</div>
<div>
I could regard myself (as Paul Erdos used to say) as a “device for turning coffee into theorems”. I have to tell you that I like to think of myself as a biocomputer on some days of the week, but not all. And on those other days I would dispute that I am any kind of computer device or formal system. I would debate that I have properties that go beyond the constraints of such formal devices. I would argue this on the basis of Godelian incompleteness,or on the basis of simple abilities to step back and survey situations that are presented to my “device”. If I am a device it is a special device that is equipped to create meta-levels and then join with these
</div>
<div>
meta-levels in a continuing process of comprehension.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
In any case, I say that when you make statements such as “defining I” as "a computing device that works according to a DNA program” you are actually suggesting certain types of models for I and you then
</div>
<div>
implicitly ask us to debate whether the constraints of your models might remove them from being the only answer to the question of making such a definition. In the case of “I” , I suggest that a computational device model is interesting and fruitful but not the whole story.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
It is important to distinguish definitions from models.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Very best,
</div>
<div>
Lou
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
On Jan 29, 2023, at 11:59 AM, Nikita Shklovskiy <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">nikitashk@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div style="border-color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
Dear Lou,
</div>
<div style="border-color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
Great! let's use fruitful starting points. Determining the difference in the treatment of Heinz von Foerster
</div>
<div style="border-color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
“I am the observed relation between myself and the observing myself” everything suits me, only I need to introduce the definition of “I”. For the Biosphere, this was done by Efim Lieberman in 1972: ""I" is a computing device that works according to the DNA program." In other words, a biological cell or several cells. In the Noosphere, I propose the definition of "I" as a "human phenomenon" i.e. "an animal of the species Homo Sapience, successfully trained in human language, i.e., a computing device capable of interfering with a program in human language." I'm not afraid of circular definitions and I understand that definitions can be complex. But it seems to me that using words in science without agreeing on their meaning is counterproductive.
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<div style="border-color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
I will be happy to discuss your
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<div style="border-color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
point of view on this!
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<div style="border-color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
Yours
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<div style="border-color:rgb(0,0,0)" dir="auto">
Nikita
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</div>
<div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">
Вс, 29 янв. 2023 г. в 18:59, Louis Kauffman <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">loukau@gmail.com</a>>:
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
Dear Nikita,
</div>Distinction is a very fertile starting place as an idea or concept.
<div>
We formalize aspects of this idea but not the idea itself.
</div>
<div>
This is because any formal definition is a kind of distinction.
</div>
<div>
e.g the definition of prime number explicates the distinction between primes and composites.
</div>
<div>
Thus to define distinction in a formally would involve using that concept in its very definition.
</div>
<div>
Circular definitions such as G. Spencer-Brown’s “We take the form of distinction for the form.” or Heinz von Foerster’s
</div>
<div>
“I am the observed relation between myself and observing myself.”
</div>
<div>
are very useful for discussion, and for finding new formalisms.
</div>
<div>
I say that there cannot be a definition of distinction that is not circular.
</div>
<div>
You may have a different point of view on this matter!
</div>
<div>
Best,
</div>
<div>
Lou Kauffman
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite"></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
On Jan 29, 2023, at 4:50 AM, Nikita Shklovskiy <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">nikitashk@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">
<b style="font-size:1rem;word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">Information “is any (distinguishable) regularity of zeros and ones”</b>
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<div dir="auto">
great!
</div>
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<div dir="auto">
the only problem of Your Binary Universe is to give definition for DISTINGUISHABILITY.
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<div dir="auto">
And to tell us who is the oner of this equipment:)
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">
Вс, 29 янв. 2023 г. в 13:27, Mariusz Stanowski <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">stanowskimariusz@wp.pl</a>>:
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><p>Dear All,</p>
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<br>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">A lot of the confusion about definitions of fundamental terms such as information is due to the transfer of terms found at a higher (human) level of complexity to a lower (more fundamental) level. Hence the variety of definitions of these concepts, which sometimes contradict each other. At the lower level, these terms become equivalent because there is less differentiation needed, e.g. in the micro world there is no longer a sender and a receiver, we are dealing only with interactions. Also <b>information, form, feature, structure, object, anything that can be distinguished </b>- are all equivalent at the basic level. <br></p><p class="MsoNormal">This also applies to physical theories that try to get to the roots of the universe by creating complicated theories such as big bang, string theory or multiverse. What the theorists fail to notice is that complication does not bring us closer but further away from reaching the foundations. To reach this level, it is essential to use the minimum necessary concepts with which one can describe the universe. Such a simplest model is the binary model, on which basically everything can be explained/understood. An example of such a binary model is Binary Model of Universe, which is simply a <b>binary structure</b> (only zeros and ones). On this model it is also easy to understand what information is: <b>it is any (distinguishable) regularity of zeros and ones.</b></p><p class="MsoNormal">Best regards<br></p><p class="MsoNormal">Mariusz<b><br></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><br></b></p>
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W dniu 26.01.2023 o 06:28, Francesco Rizzo pisze:
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Dear Mariuzs, Nikita and all. When I intervene in the discussion, I never claim to possess the truth, but I tend to contribute to forming the process of possible truth by taking into account everyone's contribution. I have repeatedly supported the need to have: - a general conception of knowledge based on the triad: meaning, information, communication;- a particular measurement-evaluation applied in the various natural and human knowledge. as a quantum-semiological economist, economy like physics are sciences based on the value of form or the form of value (even Ettore Maiorana, the late physicist, thought so). So these two sciences are a matter of form, not of (material) substance. If this is the case, information presupposes meaning and is the prerequisite for communication. . What interaction can there be between a stone and a tree, a car and a poem, a star and an ant, etc.? In fact, between two machines there can only be a transmission of signals with a common code, while the communication process between human beings it is a transmission of meaning based on the interaction of signs (such as, for example, the economic market) involving a lexical code of the issuing source different from the lexical code of the recipient recipient. I have already said more than I thought I would write, because I'm busy writing an important book, at least for me. However, let us never forget that knowledge is a process based on love or on acceptance of the other (thought), while not sharing it. A hug-Francesco.
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</div> Cari Mariuzs, Nikita e tutti.
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quando intervengo nella discussione non pretendo mai di possedere la verità, ma protendo a contribuire
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a formare il processo della verità possibile tenendo conto del contributo di tutti. Più volte ho sostenuto
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la necessità di avere:
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- una concezione generale della conoscenza basata sulla triade: significazione, informazione, comunicazione;
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- una misurazione-valutazione particolare applicate nelle diverse conoscenze naturali e umane.
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In questo senso, non posso non ricordare che, nella qualità di economista quantista-semio-logico, l'economia
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come la fisica sono delle scienze fondate sul valore della forma o la forma del valore (anche Ettore Maiorana, il fisico
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scomparso, la pensava così). Quindi queste due scienze sono una questione di forma, non di sostanza (materiale).
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Se le cose stanno così l'informazione presuppone il significato ed è il presupposto della comunicazione.
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Si può parlare di interazione nella comunicazione e di differenza o contrasto nell'informazione. Che interazione
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vi può essere tra una pietra e un albero, una macchina e una poesia, una stella e una formica, etc.?
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Difatti, tra due macchine vi può essere solo una trasmissione di segnali con un codice comune, mentre
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il processo comunicativo tra esseri umani è una trasmissione di senso basato sull''interazione di segni
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(come, ad esempio, il mercato economico) implicante un codice-lessico della fonte emittente diverso dal codice-lessico
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del destinatario ricevente.
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Già ho detto più di quanto pensavo di scrivere, perchè sono impegnato nella conclusione della scrittura di un libro
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importante, almeno per me. Comunque non dimentichiamo mai che la conoscenza è un processo fondato sull'amore o
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sull'accettazione dell'altro (pensiero), pur non condividendolo.
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Un abbraccio-
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Francesco.
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Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 21:18 Nikita Shklovskiy <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">nikitashk@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:
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Dear colleagues!
</div> It seems to me that the general concept of information can be obtained in the form of an axiom. This can be done by adding two more concepts to the definition: “language system” and “meaning”. In the case of the definition “information is everything that the sender emits that the recipient can interpret”, four additional definitions will have to be introduced for the concepts “sender”, “receiver”, “radiates”, “interprets”.
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<br> Efim Lieberman in 1972 realized the need to take into account the actions spent on calculations in all biological cells
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<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RnOEih8sgWzPRFRCWueR81K14O1xTQkUPMFOGyIS_e3Qqoj80tIU3rGT-kvAHkPBy0yw5FbjkjoGfol-47zh$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653</a>
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<br> In this paradigm, it is clear that information does not exist without material carriers - code elements.
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<br> For all the cells of the world, we have one language system, which is called "Genetic Language". This is a special case of the well-defined information written on the DNA that created the entire Biosphere.
<br> Another special case is the language system of human language - this information formed the Noosphere.
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<br> The general axiomatic definition turns out to be triple and looped: “information is something from which a language system can derive meaning; meaning is what the language system extracts from information, and the language system is what extracts meaning from information.” As in the Christian Trinity, these three concepts are “consubstantial and indivisible.”
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вт, 24 янв. 2023 г. в 10:34, konstantin lidin <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>>:
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Thank you, Howard.
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Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and recipients.
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In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that the inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.
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Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
</div> This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for the Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored. The subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is still perceived)
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<font style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</b> Howard Bloom <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">howlbloom@aol.com</a>><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> 24 January 2023 08:21<br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b><a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a> <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>>; <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">loet@leydesdorff.net</a> <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?</font>
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the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates:
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information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.
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the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first 10-34 of a second of the big bang. quarks read each other's social signals of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.
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<span style="font-size:18.6667px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">with warmth and oomph--howard</span>
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<font style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br> From: konstantin lidin <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>><br> To: <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; Loet Leydesdorff <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm<br> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?<br><br>
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Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not work.
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The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information admit that there is still no general definition. The concepts of information in different spheres differ significantly and cannot be combined into something commonly used
</div> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of Information.
<i style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif"> Topoi</i>
<b style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">35</b>, 157–159 (2016).
<a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yiv5273111498LPlnk776559" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif" target="_blank"> https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7</a>
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<font style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</b> Fis <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br clear="none"><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> 23 January 2023 23:29<br clear="none"><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b><a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br clear="none"><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?</font>
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Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
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<b style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><i style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">1.1. </span></i></b>
<b style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><i style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">Information</span></i></b>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">Consider an event <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">E </i>with probability <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">p; </i> the nature of the event is irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating that <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">E </i>in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the amount of information conveyed by this message?</span>
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<i style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.35pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">Information</span></i>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.1pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive manner. Suppose that <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">p </i>is close to 1 (e.g., <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">p = </i>.95). Then, one may argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was virtually certain that <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">E w</i>ould take place. But suppose that <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">p = .01, </i>so that it is almost certain <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">E </i>will not occur. If <i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">E </i>nevertheless does occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains a great deal of information.</span>
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<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica">These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the information derived from a message in terms of the probability </span>
<i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">p </i>
<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica">that prevailed before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a </span>
<i style="font-family:arial,helvetica">decreasing </i>
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">function. The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is </span>
<span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">when the probability prior to the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the probability is one).</span>
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<span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm. Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log</span>
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<span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">2 = 1, and information is then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, </span>
<i style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">bits. </span></i>
<span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">When natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a </span>
<i style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">nit. </span></i>
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<i style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">best, loet</span></i>
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<b style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><font style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"" size="1" face="Times New
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<b style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><font style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"" size="1" face="Times New
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<b style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><font style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"" size="1" face="Times
New Roman"><a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$" style="font-family:"Times New Roman"" target="_blank">"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"</a>(Open Access)</font></b>
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<font style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"" size="1" face="Times New
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<font style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"" size="1" face="Times New
Roman">Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</font>
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<br clear="none"> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
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<br clear="none"> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br clear="none"> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
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<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">__________________________</font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">Howard Bloom</font>
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<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://howardbloom.net/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RcW2BAuVHXHw_TEldQMQpjWPzzeV2O0M_4ukkLvSZx9DCB2GviaykLNisPEYPtpkl8AG7MnbnxrQh-_h$" style="font-family:arial,helvetica" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Howardbloom.net</a></font>
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<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.howardbloom.institute__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tpag3KoyVBTYFmRC_S68cEwcSi0ATPLOm2w3nZyWcoVHrX7gRvMJvrxjco3GXYAurl7cvBFKQpIiH-Gj5ho$" style="font-family:arial,helvetica" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">www.howardbloom.institute</a></font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">trailer for BRIC-TV's 66-minute film, The Grand Unified Theory of Howard Bloom, <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tpag3KoyVBTYFmRC_S68cEwcSi0ATPLOm2w3nZyWcoVHrX7gRvMJvrxjco3GXYAurl7cvBFKQpIi5mKNcrg$" style="font-family:arial,helvetica" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ </a></font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">Best Picture, Science Design Film Festival. Best Documentary Feature, Not Film Festival, Italy. Now available on Apple TV, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft, Vimeo, Vudu, and Fandango.</font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica"><br></font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), </font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),</font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), </font>
</div>
<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),</font>
</div>
<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),</font>
</div>
<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media), and</font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times.</font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">A Quartz Magazine Pro</font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">Former Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Current Kepler Space University Senior Scholar.</font>
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<div id="m_-5466925553992521958m_-362994248663587697m_89093949333396144m_-1587240696746217755m_-7100580658468175718m_1063414198204177668m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984" style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<font size="2" face="arial, helvetica" style="font-family:arial,helvetica">Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder, Space Development Steering Committee. Member Of Board Of Governors, National Space Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project.</font>
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<br>
<br> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
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<br> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre style="font-family:monospace">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer noreferrer">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="font-family:monospace" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" style="font-family:monospace" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" style="font-family:monospace" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
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<br> ----------
<br> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br> ----------
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
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Никита Ефимович Шкловский-Корди
<div>
Гематологический центр.
</div>
<div>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://WWW.AI-VOROBIEV.RU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QLdEAAkck5P0ZkLQDyQDcdKf2gUGrgh2RH5IB6kZGvMx3v5eR_KkaqOPkhrRAdcybXbLYH27fsNcSIXPnTse$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">WWW.AI-VOROBIEV.RU</a> - сайт Андрея Ивановича Воробьева
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<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br>Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
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Никита Ефимович Шкловский-Корди
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Гематологический центр.
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<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ai-vorobiev.ru/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RcW2BAuVHXHw_TEldQMQpjWPzzeV2O0M_4ukkLvSZx9DCB2GviaykLNisPEYPtpkl8AG7Mnbn0Yv9vFg$" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">WWW.AI-VOROBIEV.RU</a> - сайт Андрея Ивановича Воробьева
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<br> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
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<br> ----------
<br> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
<br> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
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<font size="4" face="georgia, serif"><i>Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley</i></font>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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