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<p>Dear All,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A lot of the confusion about definitions of
fundamental
terms such as information is due to the transfer of terms found
at a higher
(human) level of complexity to a lower (more fundamental) level.
Hence the
variety of definitions of these concepts, which sometimes
contradict each other. At
the lower level, these terms become equivalent because there is
less
differentiation needed, e.g. in the micro world there is no
longer a sender and
a receiver, we are dealing only with interactions. Also <b>information,
form,
feature, structure, object, anything that can be distinguished
</b>- are all equivalent
at the basic level. <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This also applies to physical theories that
try to get to
the roots of the universe by creating complicated theories such
as big bang,
string theory or multiverse. What the theorists fail to notice
is that
complication does not bring us closer but further away from
reaching the
foundations. To reach this level, it is essential to use the
minimum necessary
concepts with which one can describe the universe. Such a
simplest model is the
binary model, on which basically everything can be
explained/understood. An
example of such a binary model is Binary Model of Universe,
which is simply a <b>binary
structure</b> (only zeros and ones). On this model it is also
easy to
understand what information is: <b>it is any (distinguishable)
regularity of zeros and ones.</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mariusz<b><br>
</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
</b></p>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 26.01.2023 o 06:28, Francesco
Rizzo pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEvKwySL6-8-BR=iuVcMFddUgbc5Cu38YkR90uDa_S2sh-CCjA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Mariuzs, Nikita and all. When I intervene in the
discussion, I never claim to possess the truth, but I tend to
contribute to forming the process of possible truth by taking
into account everyone's contribution. I have repeatedly
supported the need to have: - a general conception of
knowledge based on the triad: meaning, information,
communication;- a particular measurement-evaluation applied in
the various natural and human knowledge. as a
quantum-semiological economist, economy like physics are
sciences based on the value of form or the form of value (even
Ettore Maiorana, the late physicist, thought so). So these two
sciences are a matter of form, not of (material) substance. If
this is the case, information presupposes meaning and is the
prerequisite for communication. . What interaction can there
be between a stone and a tree, a car and a poem, a star and
an ant, etc.? In fact, between two machines there can only be
a transmission of signals with a common code, while the
communication process between human beings it is a
transmission of meaning based on the interaction of signs
(such as, for example, the economic market) involving a
lexical code of the issuing source different from the lexical
code of the recipient recipient. I have already said more than
I thought I would write, because I'm busy writing an important
book, at least for me. However, let us never forget that
knowledge is a process based on love or on acceptance of the
other (thought), while not sharing it. A hug-Francesco.<br>
<br>
</div>
Cari Mariuzs, Nikita e tutti.
<div>quando intervengo nella discussione non pretendo mai di
possedere la verità, ma protendo a contribuire </div>
<div>a formare il processo della verità possibile tenendo conto
del contributo di tutti. Più volte ho sostenuto</div>
<div> la necessità di avere:</div>
<div> - una concezione generale della conoscenza basata sulla
triade: significazione, informazione, comunicazione;</div>
<div>- una misurazione-valutazione particolare applicate nelle
diverse conoscenze naturali e umane.</div>
<div>In questo senso, non posso non ricordare che, nella qualità
di economista quantista-semio-logico, l'economia </div>
<div>come la fisica sono delle scienze fondate sul valore della
forma o la forma del valore (anche Ettore Maiorana, il fisico </div>
<div>scomparso, la pensava così). Quindi queste due scienze sono
una questione di forma, non di sostanza (materiale).</div>
<div>Se le cose stanno così l'informazione presuppone il
significato ed è il presupposto della comunicazione.</div>
<div>Si può parlare di interazione nella comunicazione e di
differenza o contrasto nell'informazione. Che interazione</div>
<div>vi può essere tra una pietra e un albero, una macchina e
una poesia, una stella e una formica, etc.?</div>
<div>Difatti, tra due macchine vi può essere solo una
trasmissione di segnali con un codice comune, mentre</div>
<div>il processo comunicativo tra esseri umani è una
trasmissione di senso basato sull''interazione di segni</div>
<div>(come, ad esempio, il mercato economico) implicante un
codice-lessico della fonte emittente diverso dal
codice-lessico</div>
<div> del destinatario ricevente.</div>
<div>Già ho detto più di quanto pensavo di scrivere, perchè sono
impegnato nella conclusione della scrittura di un libro </div>
<div>importante, almeno per me. Comunque non dimentichiamo mai
che la conoscenza è un processo fondato sull'amore o </div>
<div>sull'accettazione dell'altro (pensiero), pur non
condividendolo.</div>
<div>Un abbraccio-</div>
<div>Francesco.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle
ore 21:18 Nikita Shklovskiy <<a
href="mailto:nikitashk@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nikitashk@gmail.com</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dear colleagues!</div>
It seems to me that the general concept of information can
be obtained in the form of an axiom. This can be done by
adding two more concepts to the definition: “language
system” and “meaning”. In the case of the definition
“information is everything that the sender emits that the
recipient can interpret”, four additional definitions will
have to be introduced for the concepts “sender”, “receiver”,
“radiates”, “interprets”.<br>
<br>
Efim Lieberman in 1972 realized the need to take into
account the actions spent on calculations in all biological
cells<br>
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RnOEih8sgWzPRFRCWueR81K14O1xTQkUPMFOGyIS_e3Qqoj80tIU3rGT-kvAHkPBy0yw5FbjkjoGfol-47zh$"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653</a><br>
<br>
In this paradigm, it is clear that information does not
exist without material carriers - code elements.<br>
<br>
For all the cells of the world, we have one language system,
which is called "Genetic Language". This is a special case
of the well-defined information written on the DNA that
created the entire Biosphere.<br>
Another special case is the language system of human
language - this information formed the Noosphere.<br>
<br>
The general axiomatic definition turns out to be triple and
looped: “information is something from which a language
system can derive meaning; meaning is what the language
system extracts from information, and the language system is
what extracts meaning from information.” As in the Christian
Trinity, these three concepts are “consubstantial and
indivisible.”<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вт, 24 янв. 2023 г. в
10:34, konstantin lidin <<a
href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Thank
you, Howard.
<div>Your definition of information practically
coincides with Shannon's definition, only
elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as
inductors and recipients.</div>
<div>In the next step, however, this approach leads
us to the notion of information quality. A message
can contain both a signal (relevant information)
and noise. But the notion of relevance of
information is subjective. Relevance is compliance
with the goals that the inductor-recipient pair
sets when exchanging information.</div>
<div>Do you think quarks and protons have goals and
free will?</div>
This is a very important question, because in most
areas, except for the Shannon theory of
communication, the quality of information is
ignored. The subjectivity of this parameter looks
too shocking to include it in a decent academic
model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty
principle is still perceived)<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div
id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Howard Bloom <<a
href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">howlbloom@aol.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 January 2023 08:21<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>
<<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>;
<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>
<<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] definitions of
information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon
(1948); back to the basics?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:black;font:14pt
Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">the definition
of information in my book The God Problem: How a
Godless Cosmos Creates:
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div>information is anything a sender emits that
a receiver can interpret.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>the first information appears when the first
quarks emerge in the first 10-34 of a second of
the big bang. quarks read each other's social
signals of attraction or repulsion and acted on
them to gang up in groups of two or three, thus
forming protons and neutrons, which also gave
off social signals and agglomerated in
proton-neutron teams.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size:18.6667px">with warmth
and oomph--howard</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<div><font
style="color:black;font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt"
size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: konstantin lidin <<a
href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>;
Loet Leydesdorff <<a
href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of
information by Theil (1972) derived from
Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?<br>
<br>
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id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yiv5273111498">
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<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Unfortunately,
Shannon's definition can only be used
in a very narrow class of cases. When
we consider any process other than the
transmission of a message from the
inductor to the recipient, this
definition does not work.
<div>The most authoritative
researchers of the philosophy of
information admit that there is
still no general definition. The
concepts of information in different
spheres differ significantly and
cannot be combined into something
commonly used</div>
Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L.
Introduction: The Philosophy of
Information. <i>
Topoi</i> <b>35</b>, 157–159
(2016). <a rel="nofollow noopener
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<b>Sent:</b> 23 January 2023 23:29<br
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<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] definitions
of information by Theil (1972)
derived from Shnnon (1948); back
to the basics?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:</div>
<div>
<div
id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yiv5273111498x_xffee1d4888fa460cb226666f8b0a0764">
<div
style="margin-top:14.65pt;line-height:14.4pt;vertical-align:baseline">
<b><i><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt">1.1.
</span></i></b><b><i><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt">Information</span></i></b></div>
<div
style="margin-top:9.2pt;margin-right:0.05in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:0.1in;line-height:12.1pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">Consider
an event <i>E </i>with
probability <i>p; </i>
the nature of the event is
irrelevant. At some point
in time we receive a
reliable message stating
that
<i>E </i>in fact occurred.
The question is: How should
one measure the amount of
information conveyed by this
message?</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:7.3pt;line-height:11.65pt;vertical-align:baseline">
<i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.35pt">Information</span></i></div>
<div
style="margin-top:6.45pt;margin-right:0.05in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-indent:0.1in;line-height:12.85pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.1pt">Since the question is
vague, we shall try to
answer it in an intuitive
manner. Suppose that
<i>p </i>is close to 1
(e.g., <i>p = </i>.95).
Then, one may argue, the
message conveys very little
information, because it was
virtually certain that
<i>E w</i>ould take place.
But suppose that <i>p =
.01, </i>so that it is
almost certain
<i>E </i>will not occur. If
<i>E </i>nevertheless does
occur, the message stating
this will be unexpected and
hence contains a great deal
of information.</span></div>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New
serif""><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New
serif"">These intuitive
ideas suggest that, if we want
to measure the information
derived from a message in
terms of the probability
</span><i
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New
serif"">p </i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New
serif"">that prevailed
before or to the arrival of
the message, we should select
a
</span><i
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New
serif"">decreasing </i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">function. The
function proposed by SHANNON
(1948) is </span><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">when
the probability prior to the
message is zero) to 0 (zero
information when the
probability is one).</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt"><br
clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">The
unit of information is
determined by the base of the
logarithm. Frequently 2 is
used as a base, which implies
that any message concerning a
50-50 event has unit
information: h() = log</span>
<span
style="font-family:New;font-size:7pt"><sub>2</sub>
</span><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">2
= 1, and information is then
said to be measured in binary
digits or, for short,
</span><i><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">bits.
</span></i><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">When
natural logarithms are used,
the information unit is a
</span><i><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">nit. </span></i></div>
</div>
<div><i><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt"><br
clear="none">
</span></i></div>
<div><i><span
style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">best,
loet</span></i></div>
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</span></i></div>
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<div
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<div
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<div
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<div
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and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
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