<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Mariuzs, Nikita and all. When I intervene in the discussion, I never claim to possess the truth, but I tend to contribute to forming the process of possible truth by taking into account everyone's contribution. I have repeatedly supported the need to have: - a general conception of knowledge based on the triad: meaning, information, communication;- a particular measurement-evaluation applied in the various natural and human knowledge. as a quantum-semiological economist, economy like physics are sciences based on the value of form or the form of value (even Ettore Maiorana, the late physicist, thought so). So these two sciences are a matter of form, not of (material) substance. If this is the case, information presupposes meaning and is the prerequisite for communication. . What interaction can there be between a stone and a tree, a car and a poem, a star and an ant, etc.? In fact, between two machines there can only be a transmission of signals with a common code, while the communication process between human beings it is a transmission of meaning based on the interaction of signs (such as, for example, the economic market) involving a lexical code of the issuing source different from the lexical code of the recipient recipient. I have already said more than I thought I would write, because I'm busy writing an important book, at least for me. However, let us never forget that knowledge is a process based on love or on acceptance of the other (thought), while not sharing it. A hug-Francesco.<br><br></div>Cari Mariuzs, Nikita e tutti.<div>quando intervengo nella discussione non pretendo mai di possedere la verità, ma protendo a contribuire </div><div>a formare il processo della verità possibile tenendo conto del contributo di tutti. Più volte ho sostenuto</div><div> la necessità di avere:</div><div> - una concezione generale della conoscenza basata sulla triade: significazione, informazione, comunicazione;</div><div>- una misurazione-valutazione particolare applicate nelle diverse conoscenze naturali e umane.</div><div>In questo senso, non posso non ricordare che, nella qualità di economista quantista-semio-logico, l'economia </div><div>come la fisica sono delle scienze fondate sul valore della forma o la forma del valore (anche Ettore Maiorana, il fisico </div><div>scomparso, la pensava così). Quindi queste due scienze sono una questione di forma, non di sostanza (materiale).</div><div>Se le cose stanno così l'informazione presuppone il significato ed è il presupposto della comunicazione.</div><div>Si può parlare di interazione nella comunicazione e di differenza o contrasto nell'informazione. Che interazione</div><div>vi può essere tra una pietra e un albero, una macchina e una poesia, una stella e una formica, etc.?</div><div>Difatti, tra due macchine vi può essere solo una trasmissione di segnali con un codice comune, mentre</div><div>il processo comunicativo tra esseri umani è una trasmissione di senso basato sull''interazione di segni</div><div>(come, ad esempio, il mercato economico) implicante un codice-lessico della fonte emittente diverso dal codice-lessico</div><div> del destinatario ricevente.</div><div>Già ho detto più di quanto pensavo di scrivere, perchè sono impegnato nella conclusione della scrittura di un libro </div><div>importante, almeno per me. Comunque non dimentichiamo mai che la conoscenza è un processo fondato sull'amore o </div><div>sull'accettazione dell'altro (pensiero), pur non condividendolo.</div><div>Un abbraccio-</div><div>Francesco.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mer 25 gen 2023 alle ore 21:18 Nikita Shklovskiy <<a href="mailto:nikitashk@gmail.com" target="_blank">nikitashk@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Dear colleagues!</div>It seems to me that the general concept of information can be obtained in the form of an axiom. This can be done by adding two more concepts to the definition: “language system” and “meaning”. In the case of the definition “information is everything that the sender emits that the recipient can interpret”, four additional definitions will have to be introduced for the concepts “sender”, “receiver”, “radiates”, “interprets”.<br><br>Efim Lieberman in 1972 realized the need to take into account the actions spent on calculations in all biological cells<br><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RnOEih8sgWzPRFRCWueR81K14O1xTQkUPMFOGyIS_e3Qqoj80tIU3rGT-kvAHkPBy0yw5FbjkjoGfol-47zh$" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104653</a><br><br>In this paradigm, it is clear that information does not exist without material carriers - code elements.<br><br>For all the cells of the world, we have one language system, which is called "Genetic Language". This is a special case of the well-defined information written on the DNA that created the entire Biosphere.<br>Another special case is the language system of human language - this information formed the Noosphere.<br><br>The general axiomatic definition turns out to be triple and looped: “information is something from which a language system can derive meaning; meaning is what the language system extracts from information, and the language system is what extracts meaning from information.” As in the Christian Trinity, these three concepts are “consubstantial and indivisible.”<br><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вт, 24 янв. 2023 г. в 10:34, konstantin lidin <<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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Thank you, Howard.
<div>Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and recipients.</div>
<div>In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is subjective. Relevance is
compliance with the goals that the inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.</div>
<div>Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?</div>
This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for the Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored. The subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent academic model (about the same way
the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is still perceived)<br>
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<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Howard Bloom <<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank">howlbloom@aol.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 January 2023 08:21<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; <a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a> <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?</font>
<div> </div>
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<div>
<div style="color:black;font:14pt Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates:
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<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div>information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.</div>
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<div>the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first 10-34 of a second of the big bang. quarks read each other's social signals of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or three, thus forming protons
and neutrons, which also gave off social signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.</div>
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<div><span style="font-size:18.6667px">with warmth and oomph--howard</span><br>
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<div><font size="2" style="color:black;font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: konstantin lidin <<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?<br>
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Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not work.
<div>The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information admit that there is still no general definition. The concepts of information in different spheres differ significantly and cannot be combined into
something commonly used</div>
Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of Information. <i>
Topoi</i> <b>35</b>, 157–159 (2016). <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yiv5273111498LPlnk776559" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7</a><br clear="none">
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<div dir="ltr" id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yiv5273111498divRplyFwdMsg"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> 23 January 2023 23:29<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?</font>
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<div>Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:</div>
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<b><i><span style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt">1.1. </span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt">Information</span></i></b></div>
<div style="margin-top:9.2pt;margin-right:0.05in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:0.1in;line-height:12.1pt;vertical-align:baseline">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt">Consider an event <i>E </i>with probability <i>p; </i>
the nature of the event is irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating that
<i>E </i>in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the amount of information conveyed by this message?</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:7.3pt;line-height:11.65pt;vertical-align:baseline">
<i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.35pt">Information</span></i></div>
<div style="margin-top:6.45pt;margin-right:0.05in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-indent:0.1in;line-height:12.85pt;vertical-align:baseline">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.1pt">Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive manner. Suppose that
<i>p </i>is close to 1 (e.g., <i>p = </i>.95). Then, one may argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was virtually certain that
<i>E w</i>ould take place. But suppose that <i>p = .01, </i>so that it is almost certain
<i>E </i>will not occur. If <i>E </i>nevertheless does occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains a great deal of information.</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif""><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the information derived from a message in terms of the probability
</span><i style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">p </i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">that prevailed before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a
</span><i style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">decreasing </i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">function. The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is </span><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">when the probability prior
to the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the probability is one).</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm. Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log</span>
<span style="font-family:New;font-size:7pt"><sub>2</sub> </span><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">2 = 1, and information is then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short,
</span><i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">bits. </span></i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">When natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a
</span><i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">nit. </span></i></div>
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<div><i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt"><br clear="none">
</span></i></div>
<div><i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">best, loet</span></i></div>
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<div style="line-height:normal"><b><font face="Times New Roman" size="1" style="font-size:9pt">_______________</font></b></div>
<div style="line-height:normal"><b><font face="Times New Roman" size="1" style="font-size:9pt"><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLk0MTPOc$" target="_blank"></a>Loet
Leydesdorff</font></b></div>
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<div style="line-height:normal"><b><font face="Times New Roman" size="1" style="font-size:9pt"><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$" target="_blank">"The
Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"</a>(Open Access)</font></b></div>
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<div style="line-height:normal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="1" style="font-size:8pt">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam </font></div>
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<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.howardbloom.institute__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tpag3KoyVBTYFmRC_S68cEwcSi0ATPLOm2w3nZyWcoVHrX7gRvMJvrxjco3GXYAurl7cvBFKQpIiH-Gj5ho$" target="_blank">www.howardbloom.institute</a></font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">trailer for BRIC-TV's 66-minute film, The Grand Unified Theory of Howard Bloom, <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Tpag3KoyVBTYFmRC_S68cEwcSi0ATPLOm2w3nZyWcoVHrX7gRvMJvrxjco3GXYAurl7cvBFKQpIi5mKNcrg$" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ </a></font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">Best Picture, Science Design Film Festival. Best Documentary Feature, Not Film Festival, Italy. Now available on Apple TV, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft, Vimeo, Vudu,
and Fandango.</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2"><br>
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<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), </font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), </font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media), and</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael Jackson
and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times.</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">A Quartz Magazine Pro</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">Former Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Current Kepler Space University Senior
Scholar.</font></div>
<div id="m_8627376633056583198m_8451147752084738140m_5701875968977484887x_yqt56984"><font face="arial, helvetica" size="2">Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder, Space Development Steering Committee. Member Of Board Of Governors, National Space Society. Founding Board
Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project.</font></div>
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