<div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite"><p style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;vertical-align:baseline">> Information is anything that can be distinguished in any way</p><p style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;vertical-align:baseline">Is there anything that exists that cannot be distinguished in any way?</p><p style="line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;vertical-align:baseline">If not, what is the discriminatory power of this definition?</p></blockquote></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 at 14:00, Mariusz Stanowski <<a href="mailto:stanowskimariusz@wp.pl">stanowskimariusz@wp.pl</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>
<p>Hello,</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span>I would like to take the opportunity to share a
definition of information that is general enough to
reconcile existing definitions and understandings of
information, including ontological and epistemological
information. I would appreciate Your questions and comments.</span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span> </span><b>I<span>nformation is
anything that can be distinguish in any way</span></b><span> (both in and out of the mind and also in a
mind-dependent and mind-independent way).
</span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span> Examples of information:</span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span>Information as a feature - size (e.g. of a
tree)</span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span>Information as form - shape (e.g. of a stone)</span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span>Information as an object - a stone </span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span>Information as an abstract concept - e.g.
whiteness</span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span>Information as structure - e.g. any
distinguishable regularity in a binary structure</span></p>
<p style="line-height:normal;background:white;vertical-align:baseline">
<span> Any information interacts, so it must have
energy. E.g. a binary structure must have ones-impulses of
energy and their absence - zeros.</span><span style="font-size:18pt;color:black">
</span><span style="color:black">Structures </span><span>in our mind are also equipped with energy.</span></p>
<br>
</blockquote>
Best regards
<p></p>
<p>Mariusz Stanowski</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>W dniu 24.01.2023 o 10:59,
<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Dear All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The last two messages, taken together, make a lot of sense:
Howard's definition has the merit of simplicity, and
Konstantin's necessary extension introduces the question of
quality.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only way I have found to answer it is to relax several
abusive absolute dichotomies, in particular, that between 1)
subjective and objective and 2) of their total separation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In any specific case, I assume that the terms differ in
degree of actuality and potentiality, not only, say,
information and noise, relevancy and non-relevancy and similar
pairs.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This approach excludes, however, talking about information at
the level of quarks and their "associations" since nothing is
added to the basic physics. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you and best wishes,</div>
<div>Joseph<br>
<blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px">----Original
Message----<br>
From : <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a><br>
Date : 24/01/2023 - 08:33 (E)<br>
To : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>,
<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank">howlbloom@aol.com</a><br>
Subject : Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972)
derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> Thank you, Howard.
<div> Your definition of information
practically coincides with Shannon's definition, only
elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and
recipients. </div>
<div> In the next step, however, this
approach leads us to the notion of information quality. A
message can contain both a signal (relevant information)
and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is
subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that
the inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging
information. </div>
<div> Do you think quarks and protons
have goals and free will? </div>
This is a very important question, because in most areas,
except for the Shannon theory of communication, the quality
of information is ignored. The subjectivity of this
parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent
academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg
uncertainty principle is still perceived) <br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_5096662293952895996divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"> <font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Howard Bloom <a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank"><howlbloom@aol.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24 January 2023 08:21<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lidinkl@hotmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank"><lidinkl@hotmail.com></a>; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>; <a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>
<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><loet@leydesdorff.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] definitions of information by
Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the
basics?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:black;font:14pt Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> the definition of information in
my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates:
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div> information is anything a sender emits that a
receiver can interpret. </div>
</blockquote>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> the first information appears when the first quarks
emerge in the first 10-34 of a second of the big bang.
quarks read each other's social signals of attraction or
repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two
or three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also
gave off social signals and agglomerated in
proton-neutron teams. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <span style="font-size:18.6667px">with warmth and
oomph--howard</span> <br>
<br>
<br>
<div> <font style="color:black;font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt" size="2">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: konstantin lidin <a href="mailto:lidinkl@hotmail.com" target="_blank"><lidinkl@hotmail.com></a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>; Loet Leydesdorff
<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><loet@leydesdorff.net></a><br>
Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by
Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the
basics?<br>
<br>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> Unfortunately, Shannon's
definition can only be used in a very narrow
class of cases. When we consider any process
other than the transmission of a message from
the inductor to the recipient, this definition
does not work.
<div>
The most authoritative researchers of the
philosophy of information admit that there
is still no general definition. The concepts
of information in different spheres differ
significantly and cannot be combined into
something commonly used </div>
Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction:
The Philosophy of Information. <i> Topoi</i>
<b>35</b>,
157–159 (2016). <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer" shape="rect" id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498LPlnk776559" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7</a>
<br clear="none">
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498yqt31644">
<div dir="ltr" id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498divRplyFwdMsg"> <font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Fis <a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff
<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><loet@leydesdorff.net></a><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> 23 January 2023 23:29<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] definitions of
information by Theil (1972) derived from
Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div> Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2: </div>
<div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498x_xffee1d4888fa460cb226666f8b0a0764" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div style="margin-top:14.65pt;line-height:14.4pt;vertical-align:baseline"> <b><i><span style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt">1.1.
</span></i></b> <b><i><span style="font-size:9.5pt;letter-spacing:0.45pt">Information</span></i></b>
</div>
<div style="margin-top:9.2pt;margin-right:0.05in;text-align:justify;text-indent:0.1in;line-height:12.1pt;vertical-align:baseline"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt">Consider
an event <i>E </i>with probability
<i>p; </i> the nature of the event
is irrelevant. At some point in
time we receive a reliable message
stating that <i>E </i>in fact
occurred. The question is: How
should one measure the amount of
information conveyed by this
message?</span> </div>
<div style="margin-top:7.3pt;line-height:11.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"> <i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.35pt">Information</span></i>
</div>
<div style="margin-top:6.45pt;margin-right:0.05in;text-indent:0.1in;line-height:12.85pt;vertical-align:baseline"> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;letter-spacing:-0.1pt">Since
the question is vague, we shall try
to answer it in an intuitive manner.
Suppose that <i>p </i>is close to
1 (e.g., <i>p = </i>.95). Then,
one may argue, the message conveys
very little information, because it
was virtually certain that <i>E w</i>ould
take place. But suppose that <i>p =
.01, </i>so that it is almost
certain <i>E </i>will not occur.
If <i>E </i>nevertheless does
occur, the message stating this will
be unexpected and hence contains a
great deal of information.</span> </div>
</div>
<div> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif""><br clear="none">
</span> </div>
<div> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">These
intuitive ideas suggest that, if we
want to measure the information
derived from a message in terms of the
probability </span> <i style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">p </i> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">that prevailed before or
to the arrival of the message, we
should select a </span> <i style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">decreasing </i> <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"New serif"">function. The function
proposed by SHANNON (1948) is </span>
<span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">when the probability prior to
the message is zero) to 0 (zero
information when the probability is
one).</span> </div>
<div> <span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt"><br clear="none">
</span> </div>
<div> <span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">The unit of
information is determined by the base
of the logarithm. Frequently 2 is used
as a base, which implies that any
message concerning a 50-50 event has
unit information: h() = log</span> <span style="font-family:New;font-size:7pt"><sub>2</sub></span> <span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">2 = 1, and information is
then said to be measured in binary
digits or, for short, </span> <i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">bits. </span></i> <span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">When natural logarithms are
used, the information unit is a </span>
<i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">nit. </span></i>
</div>
</div>
<div> <i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt"><br clear="none">
</span></i> </div>
<div> <i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt">best, loet</span></i>
</div>
<div> <i><span style="font-family:New;font-size:10pt"><br clear="none">
</span></i> </div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498x_signature_old">
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<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498x_x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8">
<div style="line-height:normal"> <b><font style="font-size:9pt" size="1" face="Times New Roman">_______________</font></b>
</div>
<div style="line-height:normal"> <b><font style="font-size:9pt" size="1" face="Times New Roman">Loet
Leydesdorff</font></b> </div>
<div style="line-height:normal"> <b><font style="font-size:9pt" size="1" face="Times New Roman"><br clear="none">
</font></b> </div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yiv5273111498x_x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8">
<div style="line-height:normal"> <b><font style="font-size:9pt" size="1" face="Times New
Roman"><a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$" target="_blank">"The
Evolutionary Dynamics of
Discusive Knowledge"</a>(Open
Access)</font></b> </div>
</div>
<div style="line-height:normal"> <font style="font-size:8pt" size="1" face="Times New Roman">Professor
emeritus, University of Amsterdam </font>
</div>
<div style="line-height:normal"> <font style="font-size:8pt" size="1" face="Times New Roman">Amsterdam
School of Communication Research
(ASCoR)</font> </div>
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<div style="line-height:normal"> <font style="font-size:8pt"><font style="font-size:8pt" size="1" face="Times New Roman">ORCID:
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<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">trailer for
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<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">Author of: The
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the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The
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Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the
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Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A
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How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument
will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),</font>
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<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">How I
Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew!
Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),</font> </div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">The Mohammed Code
(“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on
Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media), and</font> </div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">Einstein, Michael
Jackson & Me: a Search for Soul in the Power
Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is
revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael
Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York
Weekly Times.</font> </div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">A Quartz Magazine
Pro</font> </div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">Former Visiting
Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York
University, Former Core Faculty Member, The
Graduate Institute; Current Kepler Space
University Senior Scholar.</font> </div>
<div id="m_5096662293952895996x_yqt56984"> <font size="2" face="arial, helvetica">Founder:
International Paleopsychology Project. Founder,
Space Development Steering Committee. Member Of
Board Of Governors, National Space Society.
Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society.
Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project.</font>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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