Dear All, <div><br></div><div>The last two messages, taken together, make a lot of sense: Howard's definition has the merit of simplicity, and Konstantin's necessary extension introduces the question of quality.</div><div><br></div><div>The only way I have found to answer it is to relax several abusive absolute dichotomies, in particular, that between 1) subjective and objective and 2) of their total separation.</div><div><br></div><div>In any specific case, I assume that the terms differ in degree of actuality and potentiality, not only, say, information and noise, relevancy and non-relevancy and similar pairs.</div><div><br></div><div>This approach excludes, however, talking about information at the level of quarks and their "associations" since nothing is added to the basic physics. </div><div><br></div><div>Thank you and best wishes,</div><div>Joseph<br><blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">----Original Message----<br>From : lidinkl@hotmail.com<br>Date : 24/01/2023 - 08:33 (E)<br>To : fis@listas.unizar.es, loet@leydesdorff.net, howlbloom@aol.com<br>Subject : Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?<br><br><style type="text/css" style="display: none;">P {
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Thank you, Howard.
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Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and recipients.
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In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that the inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.
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Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
</div> This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for the Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored. The subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is still perceived)
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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11.0pt;" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Howard Bloom <howlbloom@aol.com><br><b>Sent:</b> 24 January 2023 08:21<br><b>To:</b> lidinkl@hotmail.com <lidinkl@hotmail.com>; fis@listas.unizar.es <fis@listas.unizar.es>; loet@leydesdorff.net <loet@leydesdorff.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?</font>
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the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates:
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information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.
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the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first 10-34 of a second of the big bang. quarks read each other's social signals of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.
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<span style="font-size: 18.6667px;">with warmth and oomph--howard</span>
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<font size="2" style="color: black;font-family: arial , helvetica;font-size: 10.0pt;">-----Original Message-----<br> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl@hotmail.com><br> To: fis@listas.unizar.es <fis@listas.unizar.es>; Loet Leydesdorff <loet@leydesdorff.net><br> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm<br> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?<br><br>
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Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not work.
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The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information admit that there is still no general definition. The concepts of information in different spheres differ significantly and cannot be combined into something commonly used
</div> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of Information.
<i class="x_yiv5273111498ContentPasted1"> Topoi</i>
<b class="x_yiv5273111498ContentPasted1">35</b>, 157–159 (2016).
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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size: 11.0pt;"><b>From:</b> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <loet@leydesdorff.net><br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> 23 January 2023 23:29<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> fis@listas.unizar.es <fis@listas.unizar.es><br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?</font>
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Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
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<b><i><span style="font-size: 9.5pt;letter-spacing: 0.45pt;">1.1. </span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="font-size: 9.5pt;letter-spacing: 0.45pt;">Information</span></i></b>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Consider an event <i>E </i>with probability <i>p; </i> the nature of the event is irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating that <i>E </i>in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the amount of information conveyed by this message?</span>
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<i><span style="font-size: 10.5pt;letter-spacing: -0.35pt;">Information</span></i>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;letter-spacing: -0.1pt;">Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive manner. Suppose that <i>p </i>is close to 1 (e.g., <i>p = </i>.95). Then, one may argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was virtually certain that <i>E w</i>ould take place. But suppose that <i>p = .01, </i>so that it is almost certain <i>E </i>will not occur. If <i>E </i>nevertheless does occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains a great deal of information.</span>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;font-family: New serif;">These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the information derived from a message in terms of the probability </span>
<i style="font-size: 10.5pt;font-family: New serif;">p </i>
<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;font-family: New serif;">that prevailed before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a </span>
<i style="font-size: 10.5pt;font-family: New serif;">decreasing </i>
<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;font-family: New serif;">function. The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is </span>
<span style="font-family: New;font-size: 10.0pt;">when the probability prior to the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the probability is one).</span>
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<span style="font-family: New;font-size: 10.0pt;">The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm. Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log</span>
<span style="font-family: New;font-size: 7.0pt;"><sub>2</sub></span>
<span style="font-family: New;font-size: 10.0pt;">2 = 1, and information is then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, </span>
<i><span style="font-family: New;font-size: 10.0pt;">bits. </span></i>
<span style="font-family: New;font-size: 10.0pt;">When natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a </span>
<i><span style="font-family: New;font-size: 10.0pt;">nit. </span></i>
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<i><span style="font-family: New;font-size: 10.0pt;">best, loet</span></i>
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