<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br clear="all"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Caro Francesco,<br>Grazie per la vostra risposta. Questa è un'osservazione molto interessante sulle scelte di civiltà che vorrei commentare per intero.<br>Ho controllato la posta in arrivo e non sono riuscito a trovare la breve e-mail che mi hai inviato il 7 gennaio. Sarebbe così gentile da rispedircelo, per favore? Questo è successo alcune volte con altre email di amici con cui non sono in contatto da un po', da quando Google ha deciso di metterle nella cartella spam. Di solito lo controllo prima di eliminare i post spazzatura, ma chi lo sa? Puoi anche scrivermi direttamente a <a href="mailto:plamen@simeio.org">plamen@simeio.org</a>. È possibile che il mailer FIS non funzioni correttamente. Molte cordiali grazie!<br>Auguri,<br>Plamen<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><a class="gmail_plusreply" id="plusReplyChip-0">+</a><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">++++++++++++++++++++++++++++</span></div><div dir="ltr"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></span></div>Dear Fran<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">cis</span>,<br>Thank you for your response. This is a very interesting remark about the choices of civilization which I'd like to comment on in full length.<br>I checked my incoming post and could not find the short email which you have sent me on January 7th. Would you be so kind as to resend it, please? This happened a few times with other emails from friends I have not been in touch with for a while, since Google decided to put them in the spam folder. I usually control it before deleting the junk posts, but who knows? You can also write to me directly to <a href="mailto:plamen@simeio.org">plamen@simeio.org</a>. It could be the case that the FIS mailer does not work properly. Many cordial thanks!<br>Best wishes,<br><div dir="ltr"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Plamen</span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:50 AM Francesco Rizzo <<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Cari Jerry, Joseph e Plamen,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Vi debbo con ritardo (perché avevo
superato le tre mail settimanali prescritte) due brevi risposte e
l’integrazione di poche parole inerenti esclusivamente alle cose di mia
pertinenza o conoscenza e relative a quanto ho scritto il <span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">Il 3 gennaio 2023, alle 22:59 e il 7 gennaio 2023 alle
ore 18.18.</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">- Jerry tu, fra l’altro, concludi
il tuo ragionamento così: «Non capisco il ragionamento di Prigogine che viene
citato circa le<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">"strutture dissipative" di
Ilya Prigogine che creano ordine (neg-entropia) dal disordine (entropia)
attraverso fluttuazioni o instabilità.</span> COME “attraverso fluttuazioni o
instabilità” è correlato al concetto di spontaneità. Ad esempio, in che modo il
concetto di fluttuazioni si collega alla vecchia economia e quali concetti
aggiuntivi collegano le fluttuazioni alla “ Nuova economia”?».</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Per rispondere a queste domande ci
vorrebbero molte pagine che non mi sono consentite. Quindi mi limito a
ricordarTi quel che scrive I. Prigogine ne <i>La Nuova Alleanza</i> (PBE,
Torino, 1993):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Capitolo quinto-I tre stadi della
termodinamica- 3<i>. Lontani dall’equilibrio. Le strutture dissipative</i> (…)
La termodinamica classica ci fornisce il concetto di “struttura di equilibrio”,
come i cristalli. Le cellule di Bènard sono pure esempi di strutture, ma di
natura assai diversa. Questa è la ragione per cui abbiamo introdotto il concetto
di strutture dissipative. (…) Qui la dissipazione dell’energia e della materia
(entropia) diventa in condizioni lontane dall’equilibrio, fonte di ordine
(neg-entropia). (…) Le strutture dissipative corrispondono ad una forma di organizzazione
super-molecolare. (…).</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Capitolo sesto-L’ordine per
fluttuazione (…). «Per dirlo in termini antropomorfici: lontano dall’equilibrio
la materia comincia a “percepire il suo ambiente (…). Lontano dall’equilibrio
le fluttuazioni ci permettono di usare le differenze dell’ambiente per produrre
differenti strutture. Una volta di più vogliamo sottolineare l’importanza
essenziale delle condizioni di lontananza dall’equilibrio: “comunicazione” e
“percezione” sono le parole chiave del nuovo comportamento della materia
lontano dall’equilibrio» (pp. 148 e 170-71). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Aggiungo o ricordo che la
comunicazione prevede la possibilità che l’informazione sia talora definibile
come entropia e come neg-entropia (e quindi inversamente proporzionale
all’entropia), ciò dipende dal fatto che nel primo caso l’informazione è intesa
solo come misura (in termini di bit) di probabilità di un evento all’interno di
un sistema-fonte equiprobabile e nel secondo caso come informazione già
selezionata, trasmessa e ricevuta, sovrapponendo alla fonte-sistema
equiprobabile un s-codice che la riduce, riempiendola o svuotandola di
significato semantico.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">La vecchia economia di queste cose non s’è mai
occupata, mentre la mia nuova economia è disseminata in dozzine di libri ai
quali non posso fare altro che rinviare, con la modestia di sempre.</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">-Joseph, tu mi dici che «il quadro di Prigogine è
molto incompleto </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">È ciò che accade vicino all'equilibrio<b> </b>nel processo mentale, dove i
livelli energetici delle strutture sono vicini tra loro, che è importante
quanto dove sono separati se non di più. Quanto al <i>cambiamento</i>, tutto il
mio sistema logico-filosofico si potrebbe chiamare <b>Logica del Cambiamento</b>».</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Non è meglio chiamare <b>armonia</b>,
quello c</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">he tu chiami equilibrio? L’equilibrio è
statico, senza vita, cadaverico sia in senso fisico o metaforico. Difatti,
quanti in economia si sono incaponiti a fondare questa scienza sull’equilibrio
ottimale e unico l’hanno privata di qualsiasi consistenza teorica. E poi,
permettimi di sottolineare anche l’importanza del <b>cambiamento della logica</b>
accostandolo al libricino di hegel sulla Scienza della logica.</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">-
Infine, Plamen i</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">n data 7 genna</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">io 2023 alle ore 18.18 ti ho mandato una brevissima mail che si conclude così: «</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">queste tre radici, telegraficamente espresse,
confluiscono nella capacità-virtù del discernimento del bene e del male». Ora
esprimo meno sinteticamente questa conclusione: «(…) confluiscono nella
capacità virtù della coscienza che opera il discernimento del bene e </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">del male scegliendo il primo v’ha la con-divisione della civiltà, scegliendo il secondo v’ha la divisione dell’inciviltà».</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:10pt;text-indent:14.2pt"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:10pt;text-indent:14.2pt">Dear Jerry, Joseph and Plamen,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="text-indent:14.2pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I owe you late (because I had
exceeded the prescribed three weekly emails) two brief replies and the addition
of </span><span style="text-indent:14.2pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">del male
scegliendo il primo v’ha la con-divisione della civiltà, scegliendo il secondo
v’ha la divisione dell’inciviltà».</span><span style="text-indent:14.2pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:10pt">a few words relating exclusively to things of my relevance or knowledge and
related to what I wrote on January 3, 2023, at 10:59 pm and on 7 January 2023
at 6.18 pm.</span><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">- Jerry you, among other things,
conclude your reasoning like this: «I don't understand Prigogine's reasoning
that is quoted about Ilya Prigogine's "dissipative structures" that
create order (neg-entropy) from disorder (entropy) through fluctuations or
instability. HOW “through fluctuations or instability” is related to the
concept of spontaneity. For example, how does the concept of fluctuations relate
to the old economy and what additional concepts relate fluctuations to the 'New
Economy'?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">To answer these questions it would
take many pages that are not allowed to me. So I limit myself to reminding you
of what I. Prigogine writes in La Nuova Alleanza (PBE, Turin, 1993): </span><span style="font-size:10pt;text-indent:14.2pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Fifth chapter-The three stages of
thermodynamics- 3. Far from equilibrium. Dissipative structures (…) Classical
thermodynamics provides us with the concept of “equilibrium structure”, such as
crystals. Benard's cells are also examples of structures, but of a very
different nature. This is the reason why we have introduced the concept of
dissipative structures. (…) Here the dissipation of energy and matter (entropy)
becomes, in conditions far from equilibrium, a source of order (neg-entropy).
(…) Dissipative structures correspond to a form of super-molecular
organization. (…).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Sixth chapter-Order by fluctuation
(…). «To put it in anthropomorphic terms: far from equilibrium, matter begins
to "perceive its environment (...). Far from equilibrium, fluctuations
allow us to use differences in the environment to produce different structures.
Once again we want to underline the essential importance of the conditions of
distance from equilibrium: "communication" and "perception"
are the key words of the new behavior of matter away from equilibrium» (pp. 148
and 170-71).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I add or recall that the
communication provides for the possibility that information can sometimes be
defined as entropy and as neg-enropy (and therefore inversely proportional to
the entropy), this depends on the fact that in the first case the information is
understood only as a measure ( in terms of bits) of the probability of an event
within an equiprobable source-system and in the second case as information
already selected, transmitted and received, superimposing an s-code on the
equiprobable source-system which reduces it, filling or emptying it of semantic
meaning.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The old economy never dealt with
these things, while my new economy is disseminated in dozens of books to which
I can do nothing but refer, with the usual modesty.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-Joseph, you tell me that«the Prigogine picture is very incomplete. It is what happens near equilibrium in
the mental process, where the energy levels of the structures are close to each
other, which is as important as where they are separated if not more. As for
change, my entire logical-philosophical system could be called the Logic of
Change».</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Isn't it better to call harmony,
what you call balance? The balance is static, lifeless, cadaverous in both a
physical and metaphorical sense. In fact, those in economics who have made a point
of founding this science on the optimal and unique equilibrium have deprived it
of any theoretical consistency. And then, let me also underline the importance
of the change in logic by comparing it to Hegel's little book on the Science of
Logic.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">- Finally, Plamen, on 7 January
2023 at 18.18 I sent you a very short email which concludes as follows: «these
three roots, expressed telegraphically, converge in the capacity-virtue of
discerning good and evil». Now I express this conclusion less succinctly: «(…)
virtues of the conscience which operate the discernment of good and evil flow
into the capacity by choosing the first there is the sharing of civilization,
choosing the second there is the division of incivility ».</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Thanks to all three. A hug.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Francis</span></p><p style="text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;margin:0cm;font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p><p style="text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;margin:0cm;font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
</span></p><p style="text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;margin:0cm;font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Grazie
a Tutti e tre. Un abbraccio.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:normal;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Francesco</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:120%;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:120%"> </span></p><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 12 gen 2023 alle ore 19:53 Marcus Abundis <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" target="_blank">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I am reading the posts with interest, but do not have a lot to add – but I notice . . . </span></blockquote><div style="font-size:large">From Pedro's post,</div><div style="font-size:large">> <span style="font-size:small">We suffer nowadays another strong imbalance between hyper-developed </span></div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">> </span>computer and AI techs (Web, social networks, robotics, etc.) and some <br><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">> </span>infra-developed, scarcely coherent scientific fields--missing a parallel <br><div style="font-size:large"><span style="font-size:small">> information body which could bring a new understanding and consistency.</span></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large">I think this is rather on point, but applying not just to the current NY topic/discussion.</span></blockquote><div style="font-size:large">I feel that exploring THIS area would be of particular interest and import for the current NY discussion.</div><div style="font-size:large">Marcus</div></div></div>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
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Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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