<div dir="ltr"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">In tracking the various posts my eye is drawn to Stanley's note on removing the 'quantum idea' and Koichiro's 'quantum-like' note.</span></font></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">It seems to me that *some* issues discussed head into the area of chaos theory where 'pure happenstance' sustains 'quantum-like' roles.</span></font></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">It is not clear to me that *actual* quantum mechanical processes are even required.</span></font></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">The problem remains though, that neither approach (chaos theory, nor quantum mechanics) has enough concrete-ness for one to draw firm conclusions.</span></font></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">Until all quantum 'measurement problems' are resolved, and until we glean the deeper/broader implications of chaos theory, all remains speculation.</span></font></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">Still, that said . . . this area of inquiry and the exchange here remains (if not also a bit frustrating).</span></font></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">Marcus</span></font></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 10:04 AM Koichiro Matsuno <<a href="mailto:cxq02365@nifty.com">cxq02365@nifty.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="JA" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Sunday, June 19, 2022 1:34 AM, <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote;<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)">></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> I believe we may consider an area of science in which a dynamics of simultaneous actuality-potentiality provides the necessary macroscopic explanations, in which the processes involved are nevertheless <i>quantum-like,</i></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> Quantum Mechanics is peculiar in allowing for both symbolic and indexical languages as demonstrated in the non-commutability of some indexical operations. Likewise, such concurrent participation of the both types of languages remains wide open even to various macroscopic disciplines without referring to QM directly. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> Koichiro<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Fis <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">> <b>On Behalf Of </b></span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 19, 2022 1:34 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Andrei Igamberdiev' <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:a_igamberdiev@hotmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">a_igamberdiev@hotmail.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; 'Stanley N Salthe' <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; 'fis' <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; 'Gordana Dodig Crnkovic' <</span><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: Biological computation session - Kickoff Text. Comment<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear Gordana, Andrei, Nikita, Stan, and All, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">If I may, I would like to offer a brief summary of that part of the current discussion dealing with aspects of potentiality, with many thanks. The for me central issues were implied in the following, all on June 17:<u></u><u></u></span></p><ol style="margin-top:0mm" start="1" type="1"><li class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Andrei: <u></u><u></u></span></li></ol><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt;line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The potential field of the internal quantum state implies the simultaneous existence of contradictory statements (JEB: antagonistic phenomena?)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt;line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The realization of Joseph’s approach, not only philosophically, but from the point of view of natural science, <i>require certain structures that can hold potentiality.</i> <u></u><u></u></span></p><ol style="margin-top:0mm" start="2" type="1"><li class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Stan: What happens to your statement if the quantum idea is removed?<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Andrei: I don’t see another way of explaining how a system holds a coherent state for a prolonged time, without applying a theory that deals with the transition between the potential and the actual. If the quantum idea is removed, then we remove any possible explanations of the internal determination of biological activity and the problem of self.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Stan:<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt;line-height:105%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;line-height:105%;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">So then a QM interpretation would be validated as being ‘about’ something real in an aspect of actual nature (here a living cell) by way of constructing compatibility with a microscopic perspective derived from conventional microscopic science?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It is quite a remarkable experience for me to see these ideas juxtaposed, finally discussed although certainly not in final form. I believe we may consider an area of science in which a dynamics of simultaneous actuality-potentiality provides the necessary macroscopic explanations, in which the processes involved are nevertheless <i>quantum-like. </i>I would call this an <i>unconventional </i>interpretation of standard science.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">If I take the example of intersubjectivity, we may thus consider here a non-quantum concept for its grounding solely in the macroscopic interactions described.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Best, <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 6pt;margin:5pt 0mm 5pt 4.8pt"><div><div><div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 6pt;margin:5pt 0mm 5pt 4.8pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">----------<u></u><u></u></span></p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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