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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="DE-AT">Dear Encyclopedists,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="DE-AT"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The heap of ideas that we produce begins to look like creating
the impression of an ordered whole. The following contribution from Stan could
be placed as Chapter VI – The relations as such – or later as Chapter XV:
Levels of Interaction. (We have a Chapter I: Big Boom, Magnetism, Leptons, main
organisational principles, Chapter X: Strict predictions, Chapter XX: Logic in
Reality.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Stan writes:<span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt;margin-right:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i>… utility of the hierarchical approach in a
specific instance. … any discussion of complex problems such as those of
information requires more than one perspective. I suggest that in the future we
might try to apply to information the three approaches jointly and explicitly:<span></span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt;margin-right:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i>-
Hierarchies<span></span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt;margin-right:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i>-
Systems<span></span></i></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt;margin-right:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i>-
Processes</i><span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Having a tautomat at hand, we can point to hierarchies (that come from the
sequence of the terms of the queries, the <i>importance</i> of a property),
Systems (that come from the cycle being part and parcel of overall processes),
Processes (that are caused by the axiomatic periodic changes). The tautomat is
a reading of the natural numbers. Like <i>a² + b² = c² </i>became widely used
after scientists had learnt to look triangles into the picture they see, (to
decompose the picture into triangles), the tautomat will become widely used
after scientists will have learnt to look groups and sequences into the picture
they see. The idea needs being understood, but the technique is simple and
extremely helpful. We have a kind of Rubik cube, where the paths for the
elements are pre-weighted for probability for each and any of periodic changes
that can befall the assembly. The natural numbers maintain the spectacle, and
the spectacle shows properties which Nature evidently makes use of. In the
elaborate system of databases that is a tautomat, there are <i>hierarchies,
systems, processes. </i>Stan can produce deictic definitions dozens a day by
pointing his index to a specific web of properties of natural numbers (which we
visualise in that context eg as a spatial distance), and say: this I call <i>hierarchy,
</i>and then point to a different kind of relations among natural numbers
(which we visualise in that context eg as charge level) and say: this I call a <i>system</i>,
and so forth. <span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">To wilfully project <i>triangles</i> unto pictures was a dexterity the
Greeks have mastered. Our generation needs to learn to wilfully project unto
pictures <i>the deviation to the expected. </i>In Ch I we saw the actual and
the target values not yet differentiated in properties but they had become all
too near to each other for how many they were. As they became different, they
became also differently many. For how differently many they became, they were
too similar to be that near to each other. One can point to numbers while one
tells this story. <span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">At Stan’s stage, we introduce <i>names. </i>Here, one can also point to numbers
to bring home the idea of the kind of interdependence one means. <span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In the Chapter relating to the tautologic nature of the genetic information
transfer and of the memory, we shall again point to numbers while saying that the change of
placement here in 2D causes, is actually the same as, a restriction on what can
attach somewhere else in 3D. That is a very special case, and functions only
under extremely ideal circumstances. There, that path across the forest of
alternatives is shown, where there are no alternatives. <span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In all normal walks of life, alternatives are what the song is about. As
Stan writes:<span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt;margin-right:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i>There is a gradation here between emphasis on
ontological vs. epistemological aspects. My concept of a logic of energy is
applicable primarily to processes, rather than hierarchies or systems per se,
but it can also capture a sense of the movement, more or less complete, from
one domain to another. … Processes will themselves be hierarchical. </i><span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt;margin-right:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span> </span>… how
to deal with the realities which are the basis of the “signs”? … For me,
molecules become other molecules, with new and different structures, potential
energies, and available reaction paths. <span></span></i></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We observe different levels of reality in the life cycle of natural numbers.
That during Reorder <i>X </i>element <i>k </i>occupies a place with coordinates
<i>(x,y,z) </i>is a basis, local level reality. That Reorder <i>X </i>implicates
that <i>cycles q,r,w,… </i>run concurrently, and therefore element <i>k </i>will
be predictably contemporary with specific colleagues of parallel cycles, is a
reorder level reality. That the appearance of <i>k </i>at that place can
implicate not only that Reorder <i>X </i>takes place, but can as well signify
that Reorder <i>Y </i>takes place, is a transversal prediction level reality. That
the subsequent appearance of an element <i>g </i>on a specific place can allow
predictions about next coming into existence will be <i>h, if Reorder X </i>is
taking place, or that will be <i>i, if Reorder Y </i>is taking place, is a
sagittal prediction level reality. <span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Our ideas need a clear concept of hierarchy. We need to investigate closely
the kinds and types of mental relation patterns we establish. For etalon and
taxonomy reasons, an agreement would be interpersonally agreeable if it
referred to natural numbers.<span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:36pt;margin-right:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i>… a real process (e.g. a biochemical reaction)
has its own meaning-for-us as part of knowledge. … “Becoming other molecules”
itself involves hierarchical arrangement of its environment. … the information
field, and any activities contributing to it, exist at different scales.<span></span></i></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Each of these 3 sentences show that whatever apparent dissonance in our cat
concert, we sing from the same page. <span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Let us collect more Chapters in a long but interesting explanation of what
is information. <span></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Karl<span></span></p>
</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Sa., 19. März 2022 um 20:42 Uhr schrieb Stanley N Salthe <<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">
<p><span>Dear All,</span></p>
<p><span>Stan’s message brings home, if need be, the utility of the hierarchical approach in a specific instance. I agree with his reordering. Moreover, it suggests that any discussion of complex problems such as those of information requires more than one perspective. I suggest that in the future we might try to apply to information the three approaches jointly and explicitly:</span></p>
<p><span>-</span><span> </span><span>Hierarchies</span></p>
<p><span>-</span><span> </span><span>Systems</span></p>
<p><span>-</span><span> </span><span>Processes</span></p>
<p><span>There is a gradation here between emphasis on ontological <i>vs. </i>epistemological aspects. My concept of a logic of energy is applicable primarily to processes, rather than hierarchies or systems <i>per se</i>, but it can also capture a sense of the movement, more or less complete, from one domain to another.</span></p>
<p><span> S: Processes will themselves be hierarchical. Thus, for example, a mousetrap will have been activated by larger than it human hands. When a mouse blunders into it, forces of larger scale than its own will come crashing down on it. This results in internal damage of smaller scale than the mouse as a whole so that its life activities will be interrupted fatally.</span></p>
<p><span>.</span><span style="line-height:1.5">As a test, recursive case, what might the above mean in relation to the original subject of this thread, “How Molecules Became Signs”? My conclusion is that we are examining here a hierarchical, epistemic concept. The title itself begs several ontological questions, such as how to deal with the realities which are the basis of the “signs”.</span></p>
<p><span>For me, molecules become other molecules, with new and different structures, potential energies, and available reaction paths. Their designation as signs is possible in some hierarchical. epistemic framework, but I do not consider it necessary since a real process (<i>e.g.</i> a biochemical reaction) has its own meaning-for-us as part of knowledge.</span></p>
<p><span> S: “Becoming other molecules” itself involves hierarchical arrangement of its environment.</span></p>
<p><span></span><br></p>
<p><span>I am not arguing that even the above approach is the only one possible or necessary, only that it might be taken into account for progress in the information field.</span></p>
<p><span> S: And the information field, and any activities contributing to it, exist at different scales.</span></p>
<p><span>STAN</span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 6:34 AM <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px"><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Christophe and All,</font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">In his note, reproduced below, Christophe provides an interim answer to my first response to his of the same day (March 13). In looking at the relation between Information and Meaning, he looked forward (as I certainly do) to further input by Terry regarding the potential of information as meaning and the process of emergence. (One should perhaps better write information_as_meaning.) In the meantime, I offer my own interpretation from my recent (2020) book with Andrei Igamberdiev:</font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></span></p><p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">"I
summarized the concept developed in LIR (Logic in Reality) in the following points:<u></u><u></u></font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">1.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information
generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that is
constituted by and requires energy.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">2.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information
is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning requires organisms
capable of recursive processing of it.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">3.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Meaning
is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for its
survival, reproduction and well-being.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">4.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information
processes follow principles applicable to energy and energetic processes in
general <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><b><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></b></p>
<p style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Many authors have noted the complexity of information
and the difficulty of giving a ‘single, clear’ definition of it. Attempts to do
so are typical of standard substance ontologies, where firm definitions –
identities - are automatically given preference. The failure of such attempts
suggests that a major categorial error is being made. I therefore made the
following lapidary statement:<u></u><u></u></font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent:35.4pt"><b><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Meaningful information is reality in potential form.<u></u><u></u></font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">It is
derived from the Lupasco/LIR conception of consciousness which basically looks at the real dialectical interactions in and between
internal and external, and internalizing and externalizing processes as they
move between potentiality and actuality.</span><u></u><u></u></font></p></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">I suggest that the above can be placed in relation to Christophe's Systemic Theory of Meaning, most recently of March 2020, (his reference MENITA-7 below), which constitutes the primarily epistemological part of a more complete theory embodying my ontological ideas as well.</font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">These fit well, at least in my view, with Christophe's treatment of anxiety in which potential states are critical, also for emergence.</font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes,</font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph</font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><b>De :</b> Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>></font></div><div id="gmail-m_5515672828638648515gmail-m_-7220235801819203721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 18:26<br><b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> RE: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font>
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<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph, </font></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">We can agree that a process transforms an input into an output.<br> Reverse engineering, as I know it, is a tool to improve processes. We know what we want at the output. We look at how the process builds it in order to see if it is the best way to do so (other ways may exist and be better). <span> </span><br> The output is then the starting point. It needs to be clearly defined and understood to address possible improvements of the process that builds it.<br> Our case is about an evolutionary process that transforms meaningless states present in a-biotic matter into meaningful states present in living matter. We need there a precise definition of what is expected as output of the process (meaningful information) in order to look at how the evolutionary process may have produced it. <br> </font></span></p><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> Best
<br> Christophe
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 15:12<br><b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Before giving a full response to your very promising note, please let me ask you one question about reverse engineering: is it really necessary to know the <i>outcome </i>of the process, which may be difficult or impossible? If Information IS Meaning, then the relative weight of actual and potential defines the probability of an outcome, not the outcome itself. Qu'est-ce que tu en dit?
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Best,
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph<br>
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----Message d'origine----
<br> De : <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>
<br> Date : 13/03/2022 - 14:46 (CEST)
<br> À : <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<br> Cc : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>
<br> Objet : RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out
<br>
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<p style="margin:0cm;background-image:initial;background-color:white;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="color:black;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thanks Joseph for your position. <span> </span><br><br> If I understand you well:<br> 1) There is information and meaning in our world (I&M).<br> 2) There is no information nor meaning in an a-biotic/inert world.<br> 3) In that a-biotic/inert world there is only “potential for<span> information as meaning”.<br> 4) Information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground.<br><br> In addition, I feel we can say that:<br> a) I&M can be defined (<a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENITA-7&data=04%7C01%7C%7C51d6eef991104b4f37b108da04fb8e0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637827775706215913%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=e2LmaRbblxmlDLTa90ByDnVicS4oek6hA%2Bjm4g4qb8c%3D&reserved=0" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" target="_blank">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENITA-7</a>).<br> b) Having from Terry his definitions for I&M would allow a better understanding of the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and of the “process of emergence”.<br> This is about the well known reverse engineering activity where the outcome of a process is available, and when we look for some understanding about the process itself. The more we know about the outcome of the process, the more we can pretend understanding the process.<br> Here we need to clearly know the outcome of the process. We need definitions for I&M by Terry. Their availability is needed to look at understanding the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and the “process of emergence”.<br><br></span><span lang="EN-US">All the best </span></span></span></font></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;background-image:initial;background-color:white;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:black;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Christophe</span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></span></p>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 11:51<br><b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br><b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out</font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Friends and Colleagues,
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">There is one way out of the dilemma which has not been directly refuted. When Christophe and others ask if can we talk of information in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world, if information means something actual, present, the answer is no. If one asks instead did
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for information as meaning exist, the answer for me is yes.
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">An additional statement must be added, otherwise the above is no more than a trivial tautology. It is that information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground. Since no process, nothing <i>in process</i> is complete, complete and <b>incomplete </b>parts of the process are present simultaneously and dynamically. The locus of this "nascent" information is the detailed physico-chemical structure of the living entities involved and their non-living constituents. These or parts of them move from actual to potential and <i>vice versa </i>and this movement is what ultimately defines their meaning.
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">One reading of the above is that I have given a new interpretation of the nature of a sign. I would gladly accept this, provided it can be subsequently decided whether or not the concept of sign adds further information. It may not.
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes,
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph
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----Message d'origine----
<br> De : <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>
<br> Date : 13/03/2022 - 00:02 (CEST)
<br> À : <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<br> Objet : [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Friends,
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<span style="display:inline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">that war is a horrible drama for innocent civilians. And I agree with your comments.<br> Our FIS discussions cannot bring much help to that human drama, but our tentative analysis of what is “information” may somehow lead to a better understanding of human motivations guide behaviors. </font><br><font style="font-size:12pt" face="Times New Roman, serif"> Let me add another comment to Terry’s work. </font><br></span><b style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US"><br></span></b><a style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US">Dear Terry</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US">, <br> In addition to my Feb 23 post I would appreciate some information on parts of your paper I may not have understood that well. <br> Regarding the concept of information, you consider that information in a pragmatic-functional sense can be understood in terms of molecular evolution. <br> This brings to consider that “information” is present in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world (a purely molecular world). Such pre-biotic world has existed before the emergence of life in our universe. But can we talk of information and meaning, of signs, in such a world? How should they be understood in a purely material world devoid of living entities? <br> As said,<span> </span>it would be nice if you could clarify these points by making available definitions for information, meaning and sign in such an a-biotic world. This would allow a better understanding of your starting point.<br> Also, I do not see that well using the Peircean term of “Interpretant” for an inert world. We know that the Interpretant (the meaning) needs an Interpreter (the meaning generator). So introducing Interpretants in your paper also brings to introduce Interpreters in an inert world. Your sentence “In Peircean terms, this amounts to asking what sort of molecular system is competent to produce the Interpretants” is equivalent to: “what sort of molecular system is competent to generate meanings”. I’m not sure that meaning generation by a molecular system <span style="display:inline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> in a purely material and inert world </span>can be clearly understood by today science or philosophy. And I do not remember Peirce theory of sign being about inert matter. Could you tel us more about your position on these subject? <br> Thanks again for your time <br> Christophe</span><br></span>
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