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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="DE-AT">Hi Folks,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="DE-AT"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">life is coming back to this august and serene chatroom,
thanks to Howard’s oomph and Josephs tentative, possible, maybe some little
interest in collaboration towards a comprehensive clean-up of all that that
surrounds the term ‘information’.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Two ideas have not been transmitted sufficiently clearly: 1.
in the beginning there was truth and contradiction coexisting and 2. Some have
an affliction with tautologies which turns some others off.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The concept of the Big Bang assumes that there was a
beginning (by counting backwards, they established that all that is there now
must have been focused in one place, as it is dispersing now continuously from
that one place.) There and then, everything could have been said about that
agglomeration which was just about to explode. About an amorphous heap of not
clearly distinguished constituents anything can be said, and its opposite, too.
Like about a new-born the aunties are observed to say: he looks like a
scientist or like a movie star or a strong sportsman, the subject of the debate
is as yet devoid of all descriptions and is therefore in possession of any and
all descriptions. (It fits that the technical term for a new-born’s lust
economy is ’polymorph perverse’, because it could have any form /anything that
satisfies a baby satisfies a baby/ and because it does not function according
to our conventions about what is noble and what are the limits.) Everything
that can happen has its seeds in that moment, in that agglomeration state. This
is meant by ‘if every logical rule exists, no logical rules exist’. If anything
is possible, everything is possible. Of this Urzustand (archaic state), some
organisational rules create such entities about which specific distinctions can
be made. Howard assumes that the first organisational rules be named ‘magnetism’
and the first such sub-agglomerations that can be distinguished against all
other be called ‘leptons’. It is not my job to decide whether ‘some organisational
rules’ means actually magnetism, and the first discernible something was indeed
a lepton. My job is to shout hear! hear! <span> </span>for the idea that there is something very
basic that differentiates and the result of some very basic differentiation is
some discernible subset of the whole collection. This idea Howard does promote and
I am happy about it.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">My tuppence to that is that the first organisational
principle be called ‘similarity – diversity’ and the delineated somethings be
called ‘numerosity’.<span> </span>You see, in the
moments before, it was possible to say <i>6+5=4, 2+1=5, etc. </i>because there
were not any things delineated that would have the properties of <i>6,5,4,2,1,5,
etc. </i>because these properties have not been developed yet. What can have
developed is a general rule saying <i>‘if <so many> stuff is together, it
will be in <this> extent similar and in <that> extent diverse’. <span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Using Howard’s concept of a beginning and differentiation of
types of matter and some first distribution of properties that make the types
similar and diverse, as Chapter I, we can fast forward to today, where we try
to understand the feedback loops establishing the creation and the annihilation
of type-ness, amount and placement of matter. The DNA spectacle is a huge
sudoku of which we have not yet understood the rules. This is Chapter X, where
properties of similarity, diversity and numerosity have been clearly
established and the interaction between: <i>move the position of token here </i><i><span>↔</span> add specific type of
amino acid there </i>is looked into. The background is stable in theoretical
genetics and in mnemonics. Everything is such as it should be and accounting
works. There is absolutely no meaning, aboutness, reason, progress or else in
the mechanism as such in Chapter X. The cogs fit, the valves open and close and
the regulation is error-free because <i>tautologic</i>.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Tautologie in German lacks the pejorative slur connotation
in English of <i>boring, useless, copy, ersatz, one more of the same. </i>In
its usage in the Vienna circle of early 20<sup>th</sup> century, it meant: <i>correct,
self-explicative, kosher, says the same, is in effect the same, is arrived at
by observing the rules, nihil obstat, as follows from the definition</i>.
Indeed, all reasoning is done based on tautologies, of which the finest and
etalon form is <i>a=a.</i> We use that magical moment in which there is a
balance between two ideas. That the content agrees to its definition is the
meaning of tautology.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Example: We define ‘milk’ to be a ‘fluid extracted from the
udders of a cow’. This allows us to disregard all questions relating to mother-milk,
soja-, rice-, synthetic milk. No variants and no external influences, just the two
things as such. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Tautologies are the algebra of logic. Their most useful
application is in the context of solid state physics at room temperature
(Wittgenstein has summarised the ideas of the industrial revolution.) Because
Life takes place in stable environments at room temperature, one is encouraged
to use classical, solid-state logic when discussing places of chromosomes and
molecular geometry and proceedings in physiology. (No need to think about space
bended by gravity, relativity effects or plasma.) Life is based on a system of
interacting regulations, with feedback loops. No feedback loops, no life. If
feedback loops sustainable, these are well-regulated. Well-regulated means the
results are as expected. The outcomes fit the predictions. Everything points to
everything else in a well-defined fashion. The system runs like it should. <i>The
system is a tautologic construction. </i><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In Chapter XX, Joseph will give a connoisseurs’ twist to
that all, by showing that whatever system does have two states, one expected
and one actual, there are manifold similarities and diversities among the two views
of one and the same thing, or of two (potential, possible) parts of a thing
that is in essence two things – this is Joseph’s distinction to make. Whatever contrapunto
melodies he fits into his way of addressing duality, the notes and the rhythm
will be there to serve any and all of his needs. The whole system is one
unscrewing of a knot (Chapter I), and during the unscrewing, the parts are for
a while in specific circumstances in such a relation to each other that it is
possible to correctly foretell their interaction pattern (this is Chapter X,
the phase of the close fitting), and then the unscrewing continues where there
appear areas that are interchangeable (Chapter XX). The relations there may
well also be such which are not tautologic, like Schrödinger’s and Joseph’s (if
I understand his ideas correctly). Like Newton would have agreed that his ideas
have a speed limit of validity, we have to concede that rules of consistent,
predictive counting are no more valid if the assembly lacks the basic property
of <i>cohesivity</i>, of which it had at the beginning too much of. <span> </span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Karl<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Mo., 21. März 2022 um 18:43 Uhr schrieb <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><p class="MsoNormal">Dear All,</p><p class="MsoNormal">Karl’s note below, and that part of it which refers to Howard’s below,
refers to aspects of my approach to logic, information and reality. They deserve some responses and
clarifications, the order (in this case) does not have any particular
significance.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>1.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span>1. The intent of the statement “all logical statements
being true, etc.”, relevant only for standard logics, is not clear to me in
this context.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>2.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>2. On the other hand, my non-propositional, non-truth-functional
logic of processes is a way of seeing <b>how </b>(my emphasis) things interact.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>3.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>3. I do not think we are talking about “the same
interdependence of parts and wholes” unless you can agree that interdependence
means that parts and wholes share some of each other’s properties, to a
different and changing degree.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>4.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>4. The reference to the beginning of an interaction
is very good since it avoids reification of an “interaction”. One could simply
say that interactions imply transformations, more or less continuous.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>5.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>5. The concept introduced of exactitude as a
property of interactions, leading to tautologies, is a difficult one for me to
grasp. I tend to avoid tautologies like the plague, and my interactions are far from exact.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>6.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>6. In this context, we have a core definition of
information as anything a receiver can interpret. The concepts of a receiver
and information, however, appear to be everything that participates in a real-world
process, at all levels of reality, in other words, everything. There is a
certain attraction to seeing “everything” as information, but it is ultimately
a form of idealism I for one cannot accept.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>7.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span>7. A meaningful sentence for me is that information
is an “artefact of the stage of our dramas.” I would say that it is built on
the existence of entities (with different densities, OK) moving between actuality
and potentiality. I would be interested in seeing if either of our authors
could integrate this statement in <b>their</b> systems.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you and best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Joseph <u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px">
----Message d'origine----
<br>De : <a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>
<br>Date : 19/03/2022 - 17:31 (CEST)
<br>À : <a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank">howlbloom@aol.com</a>
<br>Cc : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>, <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<br>Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: TR: RE: How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out.
<br>
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<div dir="auto">
Oomph this does have, Howard. An idea came to me on reading this explanation of what happened right after the big bang.
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All logical statements being true, none of them is true.
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Some of the melee will become differentiated, on whichever property. In your model, these are leptons etc mainly along magnetism.
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This fits all very well as the first chapters of a book for young adults. My contribution would come later, as we discuss the ideally running stable middle stage of the contraption, where and on which we demonstrate that and how the cogs fit together. Maybe a polite invitation to Joseph to attach words to concepts that are the background to what we all 3 (actually, all of fis) try to put to words and concepts and numbers and drawings.
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Namely that information is an artefact of the stage of our dramas. It is built on the difference between densities space vs matter. There are thresholds below and above which the concept of unit changes. We could figure that out once we clearly see how things interact.
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<br>
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Memory functions like genetic only in the best of ideal circumstances. So in my world the interactions are that exact that one may talk about tautologies.
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In the beginning of the interaction or during transformations of it, there are the pictures Joseph and you paint.
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In my impression, we talk about the same interdependence of many parts of a whole.
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<br>
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Karl
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2022, 01:45 Howard Bloom, <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">howlbloom@aol.com</a>> wrote:
<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="color:black;font:10pt Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div style="text-align:center" align="center">
<span style="font-size:16pt">The Evolution of Information<u></u><u></u></span>
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<br>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:115%">Most of us think that information is a relatively new phenomenon, limited to human kind, computers, and perhaps to animals. But that view is wrong. Information reared its head in the first 10<sub>32 </sub>second of the big bang. It got its start when space first told matter how to move. That was a communicational exchange. An informational exchange. And information showed itself in that first 10<sub>32 </sub>second after the Big Bang when the first “things” precipitated from a sheet of space and time. Those first things were leptons and quarks. And quarks have a peculiar property. They cannot survive on their own. So they rushed to find each other and to gang up in groups of two or three. But not just any partners would do. Each quark was born with the equivalent of an etiquette book, an instruction manual telling it which fellow quarks to rush toward and which quarks to avoid. Each quark was born picky. Each quark was born with a vocabulary called attraction and repulsion. Each quark read the signals from another quark and either sped away or glommed together in a permanent embrace. Yes, quarks met others and either rushed away or sped toward each other to embrace. How did quarks “know” which to do? They read each other’s signals. They read each other’s electromagnetic and weak force. Then they acted on those signals. In other words, quarks exchanged information. In my book The God Problem, How a Godless Cosmos Creates, I give a simple definition of information. Information, says the God Problem, is anything a receiver can interpret. How do we know when a receiver is getting the message? We watch the receiver’s response. In other words, stimulus and response—the two things that BF Skinner felt were the core of psychology--are vital to the observation of information. Quarks fleeing from each other or flying together were responding to the cues of other quarks. They were interpreting a stimulus and producing a response. They were communicative. They were social. And they were informational. Those 13.8-billion-year-old social quarks, by the way, are alive inside of you and me today. Quark threesomes are your protons and neutrons. But there’s more. Informational processes of the sort we see in quarks appear at every stage of the cosmos’ evolution. They appear in attraction and repulsion. Information, attraction, and repulsion showed up 380,000 years after the big bang in electrons and protons. Electrons and protons read each other’s electromagnetic signals and came together as atoms. Attraction, repulsion and information appeared in the sweepings of cosmic dust that would someday be called galaxies. Information and attraction showed up in the form of gravity, signals that change based on a body’s mass. Information and attraction appeared in the gravity balls that would form stars, planets and moons. Informaion, attraction, and repulsion appeared when atoms read each others signals and came together in the first molecules. And they information, attraction, and repulsion are alive in every macromolecule that would become a part of life. Molecules communicate with each other via electromagnetism and either attract or repel. Information is the backbone of the evolution of the universe. And information is the essence of the gatherings of matter that think of themselves as you and me.<u></u><u></u></span>
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<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">
<font size="2">-----Original Message-----<br> From: Karl Javorszky <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br> To: Joseph Brenner <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br> Cc: fis <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; Christophe Menant <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br> Sent: Thu, Mar 17, 2022 6:57 am<br> Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: TR: RE: How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out.<br><br>
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Yes, this is absolutely correct
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<b style="font-size:12.8px;text-indent:47.2px"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Meaningful information is reality in potential form</font></b>
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<b style="font-size:12.8px;text-indent:47.2px"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Congratulations! </font></b>
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<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> schrieb am Do., 17. März 2022, 11:34:
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Christophe and All,</font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">In his note, reproduced below, Christophe provides an interim answer to my first response to his of the same day (March 13). In looking at the relation between Information and Meaning, he looked forward (as I certainly do) to further input by Terry regarding the potential of information as meaning and the process of emergence. (One should perhaps better write information_as_meaning.) In the meantime, I offer my own interpretation from my recent (2020) book with Andrei Igamberdiev:</font>
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<span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">"I summarized the concept developed in LIR (Logic in Reality) in the following points:<u></u><u></u></font></span>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">1.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that is constituted by and requires energy.<u></u><u></u></span></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">2.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning requires organisms capable of recursive processing of it.<u></u><u></u></span></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">3.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Meaning is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for its survival, reproduction and well-being.<u></u><u></u></span></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">4.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information processes follow principles applicable to energy and energetic processes in general <u></u><u></u></span></font>
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<span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Many authors have noted the complexity of information and the difficulty of giving a ‘single, clear’ definition of it. Attempts to do so are typical of standard substance ontologies, where firm definitions – identities - are automatically given preference. The failure of such attempts suggests that a major categorial error is being made. I therefore made the following lapidary statement:<u></u><u></u></font></span>
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<b><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Meaningful information is reality in potential form.<u></u><u></u></font></span></b>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">It is derived from the Lupasco/LIR conception of consciousness which basically looks at the real dialectical interactions in and between internal and external, and internalizing and externalizing processes as they move between potentiality and actuality.</span><u></u><u></u></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">I suggest that the above can be placed in relation to Christophe's Systemic Theory of Meaning, most recently of March 2020, (his reference MENITA-7 below), which constitutes the primarily epistemological part of a more complete theory embodying my ontological ideas as well.</font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">These fit well, at least in my view, with Christophe's treatment of anxiety in which potential states are critical, also for emergence.</font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes,</font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><b>De :</b> Christophe Menant <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 18:26<br clear="none"><b>À :</b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br clear="none"><b>Objet :</b> RE: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font></font>
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<span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph, </font></span>
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<span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">We can agree that a process transforms an input into an output.<br clear="none"> Reverse engineering, as I know it, is a tool to improve processes. We know what we want at the output. We look at how the process builds it in order to see if it is the best way to do so (other ways may exist and be better). <span> </span><br clear="none"> The output is then the starting point. It needs to be clearly defined and understood to address possible improvements of the process that builds it.<br clear="none"> Our case is about an evolutionary process that transforms meaningless states present in a-biotic matter into meaningful states present in living matter. We need there a precise definition of what is expected as output of the process (meaningful information) in order to look at how the evolutionary process may have produced it. <br clear="none"> </font></span>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> Best <br clear="none"> Christophe </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br clear="none"><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 15:12<br clear="none"><b>À :</b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br clear="none"><b>Objet :</b> Re: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Before giving a full response to your very promising note, please let me ask you one question about reverse engineering: is it really necessary to know the <i>outcome </i>of the process, which may be difficult or impossible? If Information IS Meaning, then the relative weight of actual and potential defines the probability of an outcome, not the outcome itself. Qu'est-ce que tu en dit? </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Best, </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph<br clear="none"></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> ----Message d'origine---- <br clear="none"> De : <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a><br clear="none"> Date : 13/03/2022 - 14:46 (CEST) <br clear="none"> À : <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a><br clear="none"> Cc : <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">deacon@berkeley.edu</a><br clear="none"> Objet : RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out <br clear="none"><br clear="none"></font>
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<span style="color:black;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thanks Joseph for your position. <span> </span><br clear="none"><br clear="none"> If I understand you well:<br clear="none"> 1) There is information and meaning in our world (I&M).<br clear="none"> 2) There is no information nor meaning in an a-biotic/inert world.<br clear="none"> 3) In that a-biotic/inert world there is only “potential for<span> information as meaning”.<br clear="none"> 4) Information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> In addition, I feel we can say that:<br clear="none"> a) I&M can be defined (<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENITA-7&data=04%7C01%7C%7C51d6eef991104b4f37b108da04fb8e0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637827775706215913%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=e2LmaRbblxmlDLTa90ByDnVicS4oek6hA%2Bjm4g4qb8c%3D&reserved=0" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" target="_blank">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENITA-7</a>).<br clear="none"> b) Having from Terry his definitions for I&M would allow a better understanding of the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and of the “process of emergence”.<br clear="none"> This is about the well known reverse engineering activity where the outcome of a process is available, and when we look for some understanding about the process itself. The more we know about the outcome of the process, the more we can pretend understanding the process.<br clear="none"> Here we need to clearly know the outcome of the process. We need definitions for I&M by Terry. Their availability is needed to look at understanding the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and the “process of emergence”.<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span><span lang="EN-US">All the best </span></span></span></font></span>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br clear="none"><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 11:51<br clear="none"><b>À :</b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br clear="none"><b>Cc :</b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">deacon@berkeley.edu</a> <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br clear="none"><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out</font></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Friends and Colleagues, </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">There is one way out of the dilemma which has not been directly refuted. When Christophe and others ask if can we talk of information in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world, if information means something actual, present, the answer is no. If one asks instead did the <i>potential </i> for information as meaning exist, the answer for me is yes. </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">An additional statement must be added, otherwise the above is no more than a trivial tautology. It is that information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground. Since no process, nothing <i>in process</i> is complete, complete and <b>incomplete </b>parts of the process are present simultaneously and dynamically. The locus of this "nascent" information is the detailed physico-chemical structure of the living entities involved and their non-living constituents. These or parts of them move from actual to potential and <i>vice versa </i>and this movement is what ultimately defines their meaning. </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">One reading of the above is that I have given a new interpretation of the nature of a sign. I would gladly accept this, provided it can be subsequently decided whether or not the concept of sign adds further information. It may not. </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes, </font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> ----Message d'origine---- <br clear="none"> De : <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a><br clear="none"> Date : 13/03/2022 - 00:02 (CEST) <br clear="none"> À : <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>, <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br clear="none"> Objet : [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs <br clear="none"><br clear="none"></font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Friends, <br clear="none"></font>
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<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><span style="border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">that war is a horrible drama for innocent civilians. And I agree with your comments.<br clear="none"> Our FIS discussions cannot bring much help to that human drama, but our tentative analysis of what is “information” may somehow lead to a better understanding of human motivations guide behaviors. </font><br clear="none"><font style="font-size:12pt" face="Times New Roman, serif"> Let me add another comment to Terry’s work. </font><br clear="none"></span><b style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US"><br clear="none"></span></b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect" style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US">Dear Terry</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:New serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US">, <br clear="none"> In addition to my Feb 23 post I would appreciate some information on parts of your paper I may not have understood that well. <br clear="none"> Regarding the concept of information, you consider that information in a pragmatic-functional sense can be understood in terms of molecular evolution. <br clear="none"> This brings to consider that “information” is present in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world (a purely molecular world). Such pre-biotic world has existed before the emergence of life in our universe. But can we talk of information and meaning, of signs, in such a world? How should they be understood in a purely material world devoid of living entities? <br clear="none"> As said,<span> </span>it would be nice if you could clarify these points by making available definitions for information, meaning and sign in such an a-biotic world. This would allow a better understanding of your starting point.<br clear="none"> Also, I do not see that well using the Peircean term of “Interpretant” for an inert world. We know that the Interpretant (the meaning) needs an Interpreter (the meaning generator). So introducing Interpretants in your paper also brings to introduce Interpreters in an inert world. Your sentence “In Peircean terms, this amounts to asking what sort of molecular system is competent to produce the Interpretants” is equivalent to: “what sort of molecular system is competent to generate meanings”. I’m not sure that meaning generation by a molecular system <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"> in a purely material and inert world </span>can be clearly understood by today science or philosophy. And I do not remember Peirce theory of sign being about inert matter. Could you tel us more about your position on these subject? <br clear="none"> Thanks again for your time <br clear="none"> Christophe</span><br clear="none"></span>
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