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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Some comments on the recent exchanges
that I will try to connect with the informational centrality of
"life cycles".</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The input-output view, apparently
common to stimulus/response and to physical interactions (Howard),
forgets a relevant characteristic of life: it does not follow
blindly the requisites of its boundary conditions, its inputs, but
has inner drives (conatus principle for Spinoza) that impels it to
circumvent adverse conditions and to change its own structure and
dynamics so to keep ahead with the potential advancement of the
life cycle. The inanimate is inert and just follows the laws of
nature, the animate establishes its own lawfulness. Obviously we,
ourselves, are not restricted to input/output in our daily life.
Most of our behavior stems from inner needs or drives, from
impulses that overall grant us a tentative fit withing our
environment and our social groups. Not different from all the
other forms of life.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The life cycle is essential in
signaling science, in bacteriology, in microbial ecology, in
multicellular development & specialization, in epigenesis, in
ecological disciplines, social sciences, daily life...</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In our societies, we use sketches or
records of our life cycles in progress: short "bios", CVs,
biographies, etc. In order to fruitfully communicate and
understand the other party we need to have some idea on the age,
sex, ideas, professional background, family... how the life cycle
has progressed. And last but not least we compose fine obituaries
at the end.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">That it becomes an embarrassing theme
for formal approaches does not diminishes at all the centrality of
life cycle in relation with the sources and destinies of
communication processes and the subsequent elaboration of meaning.
Well, we can make a rough sketch of the communication process as
occurs in life, prune it of all its complex aspects of inner
drives & cycle, and then apply it as stimulus/response to
everything. Not serious. A bland metaphor.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">How molecules may support that type of
life communication? The simplest, most consistent way relates to
prokaryotic cells and their signaling systems. All further down we
may speculate on protobiology is just that, speculations on a
scientifically unsolved matter.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Regards---Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 21/03/2022 a las 18:42,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:613945854.38547.1647884573019@bluewin.ch">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear All,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karl’s note below, and that part of it which
refers to Howard’s below,
refers to aspects of my approach to logic, information and
reality. They deserve some responses and
clarifications, the order (in this case) does not have any
particular
significance.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->1.<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian:
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span>1.
The intent of the statement “all logical statements
being true, etc.”, relevant only for standard logics, is not
clear to me in
this context.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->2.<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian:
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span>2. On the other hand, my non-propositional,
non-truth-functional
logic of processes is a way of seeing <b>how </b>(my emphasis)
things interact.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->3.<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian:
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span>3. I do not think we are talking about “the same
interdependence of parts and wholes” unless you can agree that
interdependence
means that parts and wholes share some of each other’s
properties, to a
different and changing degree.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->4.<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian:
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span>4. The reference to the beginning of an interaction
is very good since it avoids reification of an “interaction”.
One could simply
say that interactions imply transformations, more or less
continuous.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->5.<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian:
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span>5. The concept introduced of exactitude as a
property of interactions, leading to tautologies, is a difficult
one for me to
grasp. I tend to avoid tautologies like the plague, and my
interactions are far from exact.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->6.<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian:
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span>6. In this context, we have a core definition of
information as anything a receiver can interpret. The concepts
of a receiver
and information, however, appear to be everything that
participates in a real-world
process, at all levels of reality, in other words, everything.
There is a
certain attraction to seeing “everything” as information, but it
is ultimately
a form of idealism I for one cannot accept.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->7.<span
style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian:
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span>7. A meaningful sentence for me is that information
is an “artefact of the stage of our dramas.” I would say that it
is built on
the existence of entities (with different densities, OK) moving
between actuality
and potentiality. I would be interested in seeing if either of
our authors
could integrate this statement in <b>their</b> systems.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you and best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Joseph <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0.0px;margin-left: 15.0px;">
----Message d'origine---- <br>
De : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a> <br>
Date : 19/03/2022 - 17:31 (CEST) <br>
À : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com">howlbloom@aol.com</a> <br>
Cc : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <br>
Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: TR: RE: How Molecules Became Signs. One
Way Out. <br>
<br>
<div dir="auto"> Oomph this does have, Howard. An idea came to
me on reading this explanation of what happened right after
the big bang.
<div dir="auto"> All logical statements being true, none of
them is true. </div>
<div dir="auto"> Some of the melee will become differentiated,
on whichever property. In your model, these are leptons etc
mainly along magnetism. </div>
<div dir="auto"> This fits all very well as the first chapters
of a book for young adults. My contribution would come
later, as we discuss the ideally running stable middle stage
of the contraption, where and on which we demonstrate that
and how the cogs fit together. Maybe a polite invitation to
Joseph to attach words to concepts that are the background
to what we all 3 (actually, all of fis) try to put to words
and concepts and numbers and drawings. </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> Namely that information is an artefact of the
stage of our dramas. It is built on the difference between
densities space vs matter. There are thresholds below and
above which the concept of unit changes. We could figure
that out once we clearly see how things interact. </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> Memory functions like genetic only in the
best of ideal circumstances. So in my world the interactions
are that exact that one may talk about tautologies. </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> In the beginning of the interaction or during
transformations of it, there are the pictures Joseph and you
paint. </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> In my impression, we talk about the same
interdependence of many parts of a whole. </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> Karl </div>
<div dir="auto"> <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022, 01:45
Howard Bloom, < <a style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">howlbloom@aol.com</a>> wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0
0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204)
solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">
<div style="color: black;font: 10.0pt Verdana , Arial ,
Helvetica , sans-serif;">
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"> <span
style="font-size: 16.0pt;">The Evolution of
Information</span> </div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"> <br>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"
align="center"> <span style="font-size:
12.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;"> </span> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:
12.0pt;line-height: 115.0%;">Most of us think that
information is a relatively new phenomenon, limited to
human kind, computers, and perhaps to animals. But
that view is wrong. Information reared its head in
the first 10<sub>32 </sub>second of the big bang. It
got its start when space first told matter how to
move. That was a communicational exchange. An
informational exchange. And information showed itself
in that first 10<sub>32 </sub>second after the Big
Bang when the first “things” precipitated from a sheet
of space and time. Those first things were leptons
and quarks. And quarks have a peculiar property.
They cannot survive on their own. So they rushed to
find each other and to gang up in groups of two or
three. But not just any partners would do. Each
quark was born with the equivalent of an etiquette
book, an instruction manual telling it which fellow
quarks to rush toward and which quarks to avoid. Each
quark was born picky. Each quark was born with a
vocabulary called attraction and repulsion. Each
quark read the signals from another quark and either
sped away or glommed together in a permanent embrace.
Yes, quarks met others and either rushed away or sped
toward each other to embrace. How did quarks “know”
which to do? They read each other’s signals. They
read each other’s electromagnetic and weak force.
Then they acted on those signals. In other words,
quarks exchanged information. In my book The God
Problem, How a Godless Cosmos Creates, I give a simple
definition of information. Information, says the God
Problem, is anything a receiver can interpret. How do
we know when a receiver is getting the message? We
watch the receiver’s response. In other words,
stimulus and response—the two things that BF Skinner
felt were the core of psychology--are vital to the
observation of information. Quarks fleeing from each
other or flying together were responding to the cues
of other quarks. They were interpreting a stimulus
and producing a response. They were communicative.
They were social. And they were informational. Those
13.8-billion-year-old social quarks, by the way, are
alive inside of you and me today. Quark threesomes
are your protons and neutrons. But there’s more.
Informational processes of the sort we see in quarks
appear at every stage of the cosmos’ evolution. They
appear in attraction and repulsion. Information,
attraction, and repulsion showed up 380,000 years
after the big bang in electrons and protons.
Electrons and protons read each other’s
electromagnetic signals and came together as atoms.
Attraction, repulsion and information appeared in the
sweepings of cosmic dust that would someday be called
galaxies. Information and attraction showed up in the
form of gravity, signals that change based on a body’s
mass. Information and attraction appeared in the
gravity balls that would form stars, planets and
moons. Informaion, attraction, and repulsion appeared
when atoms read each others signals and came together
in the first molecules. And they information,
attraction, and repulsion are alive in every
macromolecule that would become a part of life.
Molecules communicate with each other via
electromagnetism and either attract or repel.
Information is the backbone of the evolution of the
universe. And information is the essence of the
gatherings of matter that think of themselves as you
and me.</span> </div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family: arial , helvetica;font-size:
10.0pt;color: black;"> <font size="2">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Karl Javorszky <<a style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Joseph Brenner <<a style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>;
Christophe Menant <<a style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration: underline;color: blue;"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br>
Sent: Thu, Mar 17, 2022 6:57 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: TR: RE: How Molecules Became
Signs. One Way Out.<br>
<br>
<div id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568">
<div>
<div> Yes, this is absolutely correct
<div> <b style="font-size: 12.8px;text-indent:
47.2px;"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Meaningful information is
reality in potential form</font></b> </div>
<div> <b style="font-size: 12.8px;text-indent:
47.2px;"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font></b> </div>
<div> <b style="font-size: 12.8px;text-indent:
47.2px;"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Congratulations! </font></b> </div>
<div> <b style="font-size: 12.8px;text-indent:
47.2px;"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font></b> </div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor: pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
< <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect" style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration: underline;color:
blue;" moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
schrieb am Do., 17. März 2022, 11:34: <br
clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0
0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204)
solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">
<div
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568yqt25668">
<blockquote style="margin-right:
0.0px;margin-left: 15.0px;">
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Dear Christophe and All,</font>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">In his note, reproduced
below, Christophe provides an interim
answer to my first response to his of
the same day (March 13). In looking at
the relation between Information and
Meaning, he looked forward (as I
certainly do) to further input by
Terry regarding the potential of
information as meaning and the process
of emergence. (One should perhaps
better write information_as_meaning.)
In the meantime, I offer my own
interpretation from my recent (2020)
book with Andrei Igamberdiev:</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<div style="text-indent:
0.0in;line-height: normal;"> <span
style="color: windowtext;"><font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font></span> </div>
<div style="text-indent:
0.0in;line-height: normal;"> <span
style="color: windowtext;"><font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">"I summarized the
concept developed in LIR (Logic in
Reality) in the following points:</font></span>
</div>
<div style="text-indent:
0.0in;line-height: normal;"> <span
style="color: windowtext;"><font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"> </font></span> </div>
<div style="margin-left:
88.5pt;line-height: normal;"> <font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><span style="color:
windowtext;">1.<span
style="font-stretch:
normal;line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color:
windowtext;">Information
generation and transfer occur in
nature as a natural process that
is constituted by and requires
energy.</span></font> </div>
<div style="margin-left:
88.5pt;line-height: normal;"> <font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><span style="color:
windowtext;">2.<span
style="font-stretch:
normal;line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color:
windowtext;">Information is
present throughout nature, but its
conversion to meaning requires
organisms capable of recursive
processing of it.</span></font> </div>
<div style="margin-left:
88.5pt;line-height: normal;"> <font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><span style="color:
windowtext;">3.<span
style="font-stretch:
normal;line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color:
windowtext;">Meaning is
constituted by all the information
valuable to a living organism for
its survival, reproduction and
well-being.</span></font> </div>
<div style="margin-left:
88.5pt;line-height: normal;"> <font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><span style="color:
windowtext;">4.<span
style="font-stretch:
normal;line-height: normal;">
</span></span><span style="color:
windowtext;">Information processes
follow principles applicable to
energy and energetic processes in
general </span></font> </div>
<div style="text-indent:
0.0in;line-height: normal;"> <b><span
style="color: windowtext;"><font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"> </font></span></b>
</div>
<div style="text-indent: 35.4pt;"> <span
style="color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Many
authors have noted the complexity
of information and the difficulty
of giving a ‘single, clear’
definition of it. Attempts to do
so are typical of standard
substance ontologies, where firm
definitions – identities - are
automatically given preference.
The failure of such attempts
suggests that a major categorial
error is being made. I therefore
made the following lapidary
statement:</font></span> </div>
<div style="text-indent: 35.4pt;"> <span
style="color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span>
</div>
<div style="text-indent: 35.4pt;"> <b><span
style="color: windowtext;"
lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Meaningful
information is reality in
potential form.</font></span></b>
</div>
<div> <span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span>
</div>
<div> <font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">It
is derived from the Lupasco/LIR
conception of consciousness which
basically looks at the real
dialectical interactions in and
between internal and external, and
internalizing and externalizing
processes as they move between
potentiality and actuality.</span></font>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">I suggest that the above
can be placed in relation to
Christophe's Systemic Theory of
Meaning, most recently of March 2020,
(his reference MENITA-7 below), which
constitutes the primarily
epistemological part of a more
complete theory embodying my
ontological ideas as well.</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">These fit well, at least
in my view, with Christophe's
treatment of anxiety in which
potential states are critical, also
for emergence.</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes,</font>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Joseph</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b><br
clear="none">
</b></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><b>De :</b> Christophe
Menant <<a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>></font>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>Envoyé
:</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 18:26<br
clear="none">
<b>À :</b><a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect" style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
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noreferrer noreferrer"
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<b>Objet :</b> RE: RE: [Fis] How
Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out.
OFF-LINE for one point</font></font>
<div> <font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif"> </font> </div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="color: rgb(0,0,0);">
<div style="margin: 0.0cm;"> <span
style="color: black;" lang="EN-US"><font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Joseph, </font></span>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0.0cm;"> <span
style="color: black;" lang="EN-US"><font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">We can agree that a
process transforms an input into
an output.<br clear="none">
Reverse engineering, as I know
it, is a tool to improve
processes. We know what we want
at the output. We look at how
the process builds it in order
to see if it is the best way to
do so (other ways may exist and
be better). <span> </span><br
clear="none">
The output is then the starting
point. It needs to be clearly
defined and understood to
address possible improvements of
the process that builds it.<br
clear="none">
Our case is about an
evolutionary process that
transforms meaningless states
present in a-biotic matter into
meaningful states present in
living matter. We need there a
precise definition of what is
expected as output of the
process (meaningful information)
in order to look at how the
evolutionary process may have
produced it. <br clear="none">
</font></span> </div>
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"> Best <br clear="none">
Christophe </font> </div>
<hr style="display: inline-block;width:
98.0%;">
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id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224x_divRplyFwdMsg">
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sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>De
:</b><a rel="nofollow noopener
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moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<<a rel="nofollow noopener
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shape="rect" style="cursor:
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clear="none">
<b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars
2022 15:12<br clear="none">
<b>À :</b><a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect" style="cursor:
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underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>
<<a rel="nofollow noopener
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clear="none">
<b>Objet :</b> Re: RE: [Fis] How
Molecules Became Signs. One Way
Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font></font>
<div> <font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif"> </font> </div>
</div>
<div> <font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif">Before giving a full
response to your very promising
note, please let me ask you one
question about reverse engineering:
is it really necessary to know the <i>outcome
</i>of the process, which may be
difficult or impossible? If
Information IS Meaning, then the
relative weight of actual and
potential defines the probability of
an outcome, not the outcome itself.
Qu'est-ce que tu en dit? </font>
<div> <font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif">Best, </font> </div>
<div> <font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif">Joseph<br
clear="none">
</font>
<blockquote style="margin-right:
0.0px;margin-left: 15.0px;"> <font
size="3" face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"> ----Message
d'origine---- <br clear="none">
De : <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect" style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a><br
clear="none">
Date : 13/03/2022 - 14:46 (CEST)
<br clear="none">
À : <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect" style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a><br
clear="none">
Cc : <a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect" style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>,
<a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect" style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">deacon@berkeley.edu</a><br
clear="none">
Objet : RE: [Fis] How Molecules
Became Signs. One Way Out <br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</font>
<div style="color: rgb(0,0,0);">
<div style="margin:
0.0cm;background: white;"> <span
style="color: black;border:
none windowtext
1.0pt;padding: 0.0cm;"
lang="EN-US"><font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Thanks Joseph
for your position. <span> </span><br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
If I understand you well:<br
clear="none">
1) There is information
and meaning in our world
(I&M).<br clear="none">
2) There is no information
nor meaning in an
a-biotic/inert world.<br
clear="none">
3) In that a-biotic/inert
world there is only
“potential for<span>
information as meaning”.<br
clear="none">
4) Information is
defined in the process
of its emergence from
some energetic ground.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
In addition, I feel we
can say that:<br
clear="none">
a) I&M can be
defined (<a
rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect"
href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENITA-7&data=04%7C01%7C%7C51d6eef991104b4f37b108da04fb8e0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637827775706215913%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=e2LmaRbblxmlDLTa90ByDnVicS4oek6hA%2Bjm4g4qb8c%3D&reserved=0"
style="color:
blue;text-decoration:
underline;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);" moz-do-not-send="true">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENITA-7</a>).<br
clear="none">
b) Having from Terry his
definitions for I&M
would allow a better
understanding of the
“potential for<span>
information as
meaning” and of the
“process of
emergence”.<br
clear="none">
This is about the well
known reverse
engineering activity
where the outcome of a
process is available,
and when we look for
some understanding
about the process
itself. The more we
know about the outcome
of the process, the
more we can pretend
understanding the
process.<br
clear="none">
Here we need to
clearly know the
outcome of the
process. We need
definitions for
I&M by Terry.
Their availability is
needed to look at
understanding the
“potential for<span>
information as
meaning” and the
“process of
emergence”.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</span><span
lang="EN-US">All the
best </span></span></span></font></span>
</div>
<div style="margin:
0.0cm;background: white;"> <span><font
size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif"><span
style="color:
black;border: none
windowtext
1.0pt;padding: 0.0cm;"
lang="EN-US">Christophe</span><span
style="color: black;"
lang="EN-US"> </span></font></span>
</div>
<font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif"><br
clear="none">
</font> </div>
<hr style="display:
inline-block;width: 98.0%;">
<div dir="ltr"
id="m_-5539329188760592131yiv1326578568m_3856625230938336224x_x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<font size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif"><font
color="#000000"><b>De :</b><a
rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<<a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br
clear="none">
<b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13
mars 2022 11:51<br
clear="none">
<b>À :</b><a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>
<<a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br
clear="none">
<b>Cc :</b><a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<<a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>;
<a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>
<<a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br
clear="none">
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] How
Molecules Became Signs. One
Way Out</font></font>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"> </font> </div>
</div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Dear Friends and
Colleagues, </font>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">There is one way
out of the dilemma which has
not been directly refuted.
When Christophe and others
ask if can we talk of
information in an a-biotic
or pre-biotic world, if
information means something
actual, present, the answer
is no. If one asks instead
did the <i>potential </i>
for information as meaning
exist, the answer for me is
yes. </font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">An additional
statement must be added,
otherwise the above is no
more than a trivial
tautology. It is that
information is defined in
the process of its emergence
from some energetic ground.
Since no process, nothing <i>in
process</i> is complete,
complete and <b>incomplete
</b>parts of the process are
present simultaneously and
dynamically. The locus of
this "nascent" information
is the detailed
physico-chemical structure
of the living entities
involved and their
non-living constituents.
These or parts of them move
from actual to potential and
<i>vice versa </i>and this
movement is what ultimately
defines their meaning. </font>
</div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">One reading of
the above is that I have
given a new interpretation
of the nature of a sign. I
would gladly accept this,
provided it can be
subsequently decided whether
or not the concept of sign
adds further information. It
may not. </font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Thank you and
best wishes, </font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif">Joseph </font>
</div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div> <font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-right:
0.0px;margin-left: 15.0px;">
<font size="3"
face="trebuchet ms,
sans-serif"> ----Message
d'origine---- <br
clear="none">
De : <a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a><br
clear="none">
Date : 13/03/2022 - 00:02
(CEST) <br clear="none">
À : <a rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer" shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>,
<a rel="nofollow noopener
noreferrer noreferrer"
shape="rect"
style="cursor:
pointer;text-decoration:
underline;color: blue;"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br
clear="none">
Objet : [Fis] How
Molecules Became Signs <br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</font>
<div style="color:
rgb(0,0,0);"> <font
size="3" face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif">Dear
Friends, <br
clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="color:
rgb(0,0,0);"> <span
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;"><span style="border: 1.0pt none
windowtext;padding:
0.0cm;" lang="EN-US"><font
size="3"
face="trebuchet
ms, sans-serif">that
war is a horrible
drama for innocent
civilians. And I
agree with your
comments.<br
clear="none">
Our FIS
discussions cannot
bring much help to
that human drama,
but our tentative
analysis of what
is “information”
may somehow lead
to a better
understanding of
human motivations
guide behaviors. </font><br
clear="none">
<font
style="font-size:
12.0pt;"
face="Times New
Roman, serif"> Let
me add another
comment to Terry’s
work. </font><br
clear="none">
</span><b
style="font-size:
14.6667px;font-family:
Calibri ,
sans-serif;"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt;font-family: New serif;color: rgb(42,42,42);" lang="EN-US"><br
clear="none">
</span></b><a
rel="nofollow
noopener noreferrer
noreferrer"
shape="rect"
style="font-size:
14.6667px;font-family:
Calibri ,
sans-serif;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt;font-family: New serif;color: rgb(42,42,42);" lang="EN-US">Dear
Terry</span></a><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:
New serif;color:
rgb(42,42,42);"
lang="EN-US">, <br
clear="none">
In addition to my
Feb 23 post I would
appreciate some
information on parts
of your paper I may
not have understood
that well. <br
clear="none">
Regarding the
concept of
information, you
consider that
information in a
pragmatic-functional
sense can be
understood in terms
of molecular
evolution. <br
clear="none">
This brings to
consider that
“information” is
present in an
a-biotic or
pre-biotic world (a
purely molecular
world). Such
pre-biotic world has
existed before the
emergence of life in
our universe. But
can we talk of
information and
meaning, of signs,
in such a world? How
should they be
understood in a
purely material
world devoid of
living entities? <br
clear="none">
As said,<span> </span>it
would be nice if you
could clarify these
points by making
available
definitions for
information, meaning
and sign in such an
a-biotic world. This
would allow a better
understanding of
your starting point.<br
clear="none">
Also, I do not see
that well using the
Peircean term of
“Interpretant” for
an inert world. We
know that the
Interpretant (the
meaning) needs an
Interpreter (the
meaning generator).
So introducing
Interpretants in
your paper also
brings to introduce
Interpreters in an
inert world. Your
sentence “In
Peircean terms, this
amounts to asking
what sort of
molecular system is
competent to produce
the Interpretants”
is equivalent to:
“what sort of
molecular system is
competent to
generate meanings”.
I’m not sure that
meaning generation
by a molecular
system <span
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);display: inline;"> in a purely material and inert
world </span>can
be clearly
understood by today
science or
philosophy. And I do
not remember Peirce
theory of sign being
about inert matter.
Could you tel us
more about your
position on these
subject? <br
clear="none">
Thanks again for
your time <br
clear="none">
Christophe</span><br
clear="none">
</span> </div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Libre de virus. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a> </td>
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