<p class="MsoNormal">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stan’s message brings home, if need be, the utility of the
hierarchical approach in a specific instance. I agree with his reordering. Moreover,
it suggests that any discussion of complex problems such as those of information
requires more than one perspective. I suggest that in the future we might try
to apply to information the three approaches jointly and explicitly:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="margin-left:.75in;mso-add-space:auto;
text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->-<span style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span><!--[endif]-->Hierarchies<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:.75in;mso-add-space:
auto;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->-<span style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span><!--[endif]-->Systems<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin-left:.75in;mso-add-space:auto;
text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]-->-<span style="font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span><!--[endif]-->Processes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is a gradation here between emphasis on ontological <i>vs.
</i>epistemological aspects. My concept of a logic of energy is applicable
primarily to processes, rather than hierarchies or systems <i>per se</i>, but
it can also capture a sense of the movement, more or less complete, from one domain
to another.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As a test, recursive case, what might the above mean in
relation to the original subject of this thread, “How Molecules Became Signs”?
My conclusion is that we are examining here a hierarchical, epistemic concept. The
title itself begs several ontological questions, such as how to deal with the realities
which are the basis of the “signs”.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For me, molecules become other molecules, with new and
different structures, potential energies, and available reaction paths. Their
designation as signs is possible in some hierarchical. epistemic framework, but
I do not consider it necessary since a real process (<i>e.g.</i> a biochemical
reaction) has its own meaning-for-us as part of knowledge. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am not arguing that even the above approach is the only one possible or necessary, only that it might be taken into account for progress in the information field.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you and best wishes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Joseph<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">----Message d'origine----<br>De : ssalthe@binghamton.edu<br>Date : 17/03/2022 - 20:06 (CEST)<br>À : fis@listas.unizar.es<br>Objet : Re: [Fis] [External Email] Fwd: TR: RE: How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out.<br><br><div dir="ltr">
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<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1">1. Information generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that is constituted by and requires energy.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1">2. Information is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning requires organisms capable of recursive processing of it.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1">3. Meaning is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for its survival, reproduction and well-being.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1"> Information processes follow principles applicable to energy and energetic processes in general </span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2"><span class="gmail-s1"></span><br></p>
<p class="gmail-p3"><span class="gmail-s1">So, you have a specification hierarchy {1 {2 {3 }. 4 is an assertion outside this hierarchy but relates most closely to 1. </span></p>
<p class="gmail-p3"><span class="gmail-s1">Thus, I think you might want to rewrite the hierarchy as {4 {1 {2 {3} </span></p>
<p class="gmail-p3"><span class="gmail-s1">STAN </span></p>
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On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 6:34 AM
<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <
<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Dear Christophe and All,</font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">In his note, reproduced below, Christophe provides an interim answer to my first response to his of the same day (March 13). In looking at the relation between Information and Meaning, he looked forward (as I certainly do) to further input by Terry regarding the potential of information as meaning and the process of emergence. (One should perhaps better write information_as_meaning.) In the meantime, I offer my own interpretation from my recent (2020) book with Andrei Igamberdiev:</font>
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<p style="text-indent: 0.0in;line-height: normal;"><span style="color: windowtext;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">"I summarized the concept developed in LIR (Logic in Reality) in the following points:<u></u><u></u></font></span></p>
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<p style="margin-left: 88.5pt;line-height: normal;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="color: windowtext;">1.<span style="font-stretch: normal;line-height: normal;"> </span></span><span style="color: windowtext;">Information generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that is constituted by and requires energy.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left: 88.5pt;line-height: normal;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="color: windowtext;">2.<span style="font-stretch: normal;line-height: normal;"> </span></span><span style="color: windowtext;">Information is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning requires organisms capable of recursive processing of it.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left: 88.5pt;line-height: normal;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="color: windowtext;">3.<span style="font-stretch: normal;line-height: normal;"> </span></span><span style="color: windowtext;">Meaning is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for its survival, reproduction and well-being.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left: 88.5pt;line-height: normal;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="color: windowtext;">4.<span style="font-stretch: normal;line-height: normal;"> </span></span><span style="color: windowtext;">Information processes follow principles applicable to energy and energetic processes in general <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="text-indent: 0.0in;line-height: normal;"><b><span style="color: windowtext;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"> </font></span></b></p>
<p style="text-indent: 35.4pt;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color: windowtext;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Many authors have noted the complexity of information and the difficulty of giving a ‘single, clear’ definition of it. Attempts to do so are typical of standard substance ontologies, where firm definitions – identities - are automatically given preference. The failure of such attempts suggests that a major categorial error is being made. I therefore made the following lapidary statement:<u></u><u></u></font></span></p>
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<p style="text-indent: 35.4pt;"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="color: windowtext;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Meaningful information is reality in potential form.<u></u><u></u></font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><span lang="EN-GB">It is derived from the Lupasco/LIR conception of consciousness which basically looks at the real dialectical interactions in and between internal and external, and internalizing and externalizing processes as they move between potentiality and actuality.</span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">I suggest that the above can be placed in relation to Christophe's Systemic Theory of Meaning, most recently of March 2020, (his reference MENITA-7 below), which constitutes the primarily epistemological part of a more complete theory embodying my ontological ideas as well.</font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">These fit well, at least in my view, with Christophe's treatment of anxiety in which potential states are critical, also for emergence.</font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Thank you and best wishes,</font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Joseph</font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><b>De :</b> Christophe Menant <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr');">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>></font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><font color="#000000"><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 18:26<br><b>À :</b><a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> RE: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font></font>
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<p style="margin: 0.0cm;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Joseph, </font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0.0cm;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">We can agree that a process transforms an input into an output.<br> Reverse engineering, as I know it, is a tool to improve processes. We know what we want at the output. We look at how the process builds it in order to see if it is the best way to do so (other ways may exist and be better). <span> </span><br> The output is then the starting point. It needs to be clearly defined and understood to address possible improvements of the process that builds it.<br> Our case is about an evolutionary process that transforms meaningless states present in a-biotic matter into meaningful states present in living matter. We need there a precise definition of what is expected as output of the process (meaningful information) in order to look at how the evolutionary process may have produced it. <br> </font></span></p>
<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"> Best <br> Christophe </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b><a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 15:12<br><b>À :</b><a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr');">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr');">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font></font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Before giving a full response to your very promising note, please let me ask you one question about reverse engineering: is it really necessary to know the <i>outcome </i>of the process, which may be difficult or impossible? If Information IS Meaning, then the relative weight of actual and potential defines the probability of an outcome, not the outcome itself. Qu'est-ce que tu en dit? </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Best, </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Joseph<br></font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"> ----Message d'origine---- <br> De : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr');">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a><br> Date : 13/03/2022 - 14:46 (CEST) <br> À : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a><br> Cc : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es');">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu');">deacon@berkeley.edu</a><br> Objet : RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out <br><br></font>
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<p style="margin: 0.0cm;background-image: initial;background-color: white;background-size: initial;background-origin: initial;background-clip: initial;background-position: initial;background-repeat: initial;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black;border: 1.0pt none windowtext;padding: 0.0cm;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Thanks Joseph for your position. <span> </span><br><br> If I understand you well:<br> 1) There is information and meaning in our world (I&M).<br> 2) There is no information nor meaning in an a-biotic/inert world.<br> 3) In that a-biotic/inert world there is only “potential for<span> information as meaning”.<br> 4) Information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground.<br><br> In addition, I feel we can say that:<br> a) I&M can be defined (<a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENITA-7&data=04%7C01%7C%7C51d6eef991104b4f37b108da04fb8e0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637827775706215913%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=e2LmaRbblxmlDLTa90ByDnVicS4oek6hA%2Bjm4g4qb8c%3D&reserved=0" style="color: blue;text-decoration: underline;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENITA-7</a>).<br> b) Having from Terry his definitions for I&M would allow a better understanding of the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and of the “process of emergence”.<br> This is about the well known reverse engineering activity where the outcome of a process is available, and when we look for some understanding about the process itself. The more we know about the outcome of the process, the more we can pretend understanding the process.<br> Here we need to clearly know the outcome of the process. We need definitions for I&M by Terry. Their availability is needed to look at understanding the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and the “process of emergence”.<br><br></span><span lang="EN-US">All the best </span></span></span></font></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0.0cm;background-image: initial;background-color: white;background-size: initial;background-origin: initial;background-clip: initial;background-position: initial;background-repeat: initial;"><span><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black;border: 1.0pt none windowtext;padding: 0.0cm;">Christophe</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: black;"> </span></font></span></p>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b><a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch');">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 11:51<br><b>À :</b><a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr');">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr');">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br><b>Cc :</b><a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es');">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es');">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu');">deacon@berkeley.edu</a> <<a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu');">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out</font></font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Dear Friends and Colleagues, </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">There is one way out of the dilemma which has not been directly refuted. When Christophe and others ask if can we talk of information in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world, if information means something actual, present, the answer is no. If one asks instead did the <i>potential </i> for information as meaning exist, the answer for me is yes. </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">An additional statement must be added, otherwise the above is no more than a trivial tautology. It is that information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground. Since no process, nothing <i>in process</i> is complete, complete and <b>incomplete </b>parts of the process are present simultaneously and dynamically. The locus of this "nascent" information is the detailed physico-chemical structure of the living entities involved and their non-living constituents. These or parts of them move from actual to potential and <i>vice versa </i>and this movement is what ultimately defines their meaning. </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">One reading of the above is that I have given a new interpretation of the nature of a sign. I would gladly accept this, provided it can be subsequently decided whether or not the concept of sign adds further information. It may not. </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">Thank you and best wishes, </font>
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<font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3"> ----Message d'origine---- <br> De : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr');">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a><br> Date : 13/03/2022 - 00:02 (CEST) <br> À : <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu');">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>, <a style="cursor:pointer; text-decoration:underline; color:blue" onclick="javascript:handleMailto('mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es');">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br> Objet : [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs <br><br></font>
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<span style="display: inline;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);"><span lang="EN-US" style="border: 1.0pt none windowtext;padding: 0.0cm;"><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" size="3">that war is a horrible drama for innocent civilians. And I agree with your comments.<br> Our FIS discussions cannot bring much help to that human drama, but our tentative analysis of what is “information” may somehow lead to a better understanding of human motivations guide behaviors. </font><br><font face="Times New Roman, serif" style="font-size: 12.0pt;"> Let me add another comment to Terry’s work. </font><br></span><b style="font-size: 14.6667px;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;color: rgb(42,42,42);"><br></span></b><a style="font-size: 14.6667px;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;color: rgb(42,42,42);">Dear Terry</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;color: rgb(42,42,42);">, <br> In addition to my Feb 23 post I would appreciate some information on parts of your paper I may not have understood that well. <br> Regarding the concept of information, you consider that information in a pragmatic-functional sense can be understood in terms of molecular evolution. <br> This brings to consider that “information” is present in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world (a purely molecular world). Such pre-biotic world has existed before the emergence of life in our universe. But can we talk of information and meaning, of signs, in such a world? How should they be understood in a purely material world devoid of living entities? <br> As said,<span> </span>it would be nice if you could clarify these points by making available definitions for information, meaning and sign in such an a-biotic world. This would allow a better understanding of your starting point.<br> Also, I do not see that well using the Peircean term of “Interpretant” for an inert world. We know that the Interpretant (the meaning) needs an Interpreter (the meaning generator). So introducing Interpretants in your paper also brings to introduce Interpreters in an inert world. Your sentence “In Peircean terms, this amounts to asking what sort of molecular system is competent to produce the Interpretants” is equivalent to: “what sort of molecular system is competent to generate meanings”. I’m not sure that meaning generation by a molecular system <span style="display: inline;background-color: rgb(255,255,255);"> in a purely material and inert world </span>can be clearly understood by today science or philosophy. And I do not remember Peirce theory of sign being about inert matter. Could you tel us more about your position on these subject? <br> Thanks again for your time <br> Christophe</span><br></span>
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