<div dir="ltr"><span>
</span><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Thanks, Stan that you engage in clearing the
terminology.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>Stan:</span></i><span><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>1.
Information generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that
is constituted by and requires energy.<span></span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>2.
Information is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning
requires organisms capable of recursive processing of it.<span></span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>3.
Meaning is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for
its survival, reproduction and well-being.<span></span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 30pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span> Information processes follow principles
applicable to energy and energetic processes in general </span></i><span><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 30pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>So, you have a specification hierarchy {1 {2 {3 }. 4 is an
assertion outside this hierarchy but relates most closely to 1. </span></i><span><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 30pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>Thus, I think you might want to rewrite the hierarchy as {4 {1 {2
{3} </span></i><span><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Remarks:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>1.
Information generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that
is constituted by and requires energy. </span></i><span><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Information
is a name for a property of Nature. The property we call information is present
<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 30pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>a. in Nature, <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 30pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>b. in our pictures of Nature.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Both the
underlying facts and our pictures of the fact, are caused and made perceptible
for us, by a slight inner discongruence (relative inexactitude, slack, bias,
dis-calibration, etc.) that exists in Nature and exists in our correct
depictions of Nature. Like high and low tides are caused by the gravity
of the Moon, information is caused by the inner inexactitude of counting
similarities and diversities. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>If we assume
that metamorphoses among diverse kinds, types, appearances of information are
linked to the consumption of energy, then we assume that <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>a. energy is inserted
into Nature from an external source or that <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>b. Nature keeps a <i>perpetuum
mobile machine </i>running. <br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>This would run contrary to established articles of
beliefs, according to which models that have as a core principle the
functioning of a <i>perpetuum mobile </i> are to be discounted as not
being rational. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>That
information also has a form, type, appearance, which we are prone to mix up
with energy, is one thing. Both information and energy refer to potential, that
is to alternatives that may also have been the case, be the case or will
possibly turn out to be the case. The translation of possibilities to
certainties shows their difference: while the translation of energy into matter
or space has been solved with regard to matter, the question of how much space
is generated by a given amount of energy/matter is not answered as yet. The situation
with information is different. The translation of information into properties of matter is
seen in physiology and genetics (where the how-ness /information/ of logical
tokens /information, the DNA's sequence/) translates into the how-ness of the
next material segment /amino acid/. The information does not get consumed, in
contrast to energy, which gets consumed by a translation into matter.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Look at
magnetic attraction and repulsion. Two magnets attract, if in their common
space there is too much diversity and repel if in their common space is too much of
similarity. This is done by information, not energy. In the basic model of the
world, with axes z: <i>a+b, x: b-2a, y: a-2b, </i>we have one vertical axis
(the gravity axis), and a plane (the plane of diversity). In such a
space, nearing two magnets with opposite ends shows that <b>there is </b>a
plane (the current actual plane), on which parts with so much diversity <b>do
have </b>a place near or on the common axis, whereto the two magnets belong.
Nearing two magnets with their similar ends shows that <b>there is no </b>such
plane on which two assemblies that are so much similar to each other would have
a common place. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>One would
not call magnetic properties of things a kind of energy. One can call the
results of magnetic phenomena to be caused by <b>information, </b>if
information is understood to mean our ability to assign places to objects in
dependence of the objects' similarity and diversity properties. Information is
the catalogue of places where things actually are (the actual values) as a
deviation to the places things would be in the ideal case (expected values).
Information is the extent of being otherwise. Some properties of things that
are otherwise can be translated into each other by using the auxiliary concept
of energy. Information is the order concept and the deviations to the order
concept, energy is the method by which the deviations in the order concept can
be rectified. Information is the plan, how to make out of heaps of sand, cement
and iron a house, energy is needed to carry and assemble the sand, cement and
iron while one builds the house.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>2.
Information is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning
requires organisms capable of recursive processing of it.</span></i><span> <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>'Meaning'
apparently refers to mental images to be included in a web of relations. The
sentence, as it stands, is true. The facts of leaves turning brown,
temperatures decreasing and daylight becoming shorter are a part and parcel of
information that Autumn has begun. The name 'Autumn' is the meaning of
the observed facts. We create meaning by superimposing one general name for a
multitude of concepts. For some people, Autumn will be declared, if the
migratory birds leave (or arrive) or the wife wants new shoes. The assignment
of meaning to a collection of impressions has nothing to do with conversions of
information (as can be seen by means of the erroneous attachment of meaning of
thunder to Thor throwing around his hammer). Meaning is created by putting
observations into a web of possible explanations. At the stage we presently are
in understanding information as a property of Nature, it appears an overreach
to try to match information to mental processes. We would be happy, I believe,
if we could peel off all the irrelevant connotations to information and
understand which natural phenomenon we talk about, before we investigate how
this natural phenomenon affects our thinking. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>3.
Meaning is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for
its survival, reproduction and well-being.</span></i><span> <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>One could
use the sentence as it stands, but it would be rather circuitous and
unnecessarily complicated. In case we would have an agreed-on concept what a
'living organism' means, we would still have to decide: if the sentence refers
to the implication that solitary confinement (a state of enduring sensory
deprivation) is a torture and is detrimental to health, because a living organism
needs a sufficiently varied environment to survive, then the sentence would
make a sense. If the sentence refers to the fact that a living organism needs
other, different and varied constituents of the world to function well (things
to eat need to be different to the organism and the partner for reproduction
needs to be different, etc.), then the sentence would again make sense. But
these aspects are not yet the bridge to cross. We are presently at the stage
where we try to understand how the information contained in the DNA matches the
information contained within the living organism. We are not yet on the search
for the diversities that remain after we shall have solved the riddle of
similarities: how the information contained in the DNA is the same as the
information contained in the living organism. What the organism thinks,
hopes, wishes and what is valuable for the organism, is not yet any topic of
discussion. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>There's a
problem of not as many closing parentheses as there are opening parentheses in:
<i>{1 {2 {3 }. </i>There is no statement numbered <i>4</i>., although the
writer refers to point <i>4. </i><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b><i><span>Summarising: </span></i></b><span>Information does not consume energy. Information is
the description of Δ (actual value, target value). The Δ (actual value, target
value) is a constituent fact of Nature. Some variants of Δ (actual value,
target value) have forms of realisations which make Δ (actual value, target
value) comparable to energy. The two concepts are closely related, like
disorder and work to clean up are related. These two concepts should not be
mixed up. What the meaning of the subject is, when confronted with the fact of
an existing disorder and the requirements that he cleans up, is neither here
nor there in the current discussion.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Karl<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<span></span><div><p><span><i><span></span></i>
</span></p><p style="margin-left:40px"><i><span></span></i></p>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Do., 17. März 2022 um 20:09 Uhr schrieb Stanley N Salthe <<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">
<p><span>1. Information generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that is constituted by and requires energy.</span></p>
<p><span>2. Information is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning requires organisms capable of recursive processing of it.</span></p>
<p><span>3. Meaning is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for its survival, reproduction and well-being.</span></p>
<p><span> Information processes follow principles applicable to energy and energetic processes in general </span></p>
<p><span></span><br></p>
<p><span>So, you have a specification hierarchy {1 {2 {3 }. 4 is an assertion outside this hierarchy but relates most closely to 1. </span></p>
<p><span>Thus, I think you might want to rewrite the hierarchy as {4 {1 {2 {3} </span></p>
<p><span>STAN </span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 6:34 AM <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px"><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Christophe and All,</font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">In his note, reproduced below, Christophe provides an interim answer to my first response to his of the same day (March 13). In looking at the relation between Information and Meaning, he looked forward (as I certainly do) to further input by Terry regarding the potential of information as meaning and the process of emergence. (One should perhaps better write information_as_meaning.) In the meantime, I offer my own interpretation from my recent (2020) book with Andrei Igamberdiev:</font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></span></p><p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">"I
summarized the concept developed in LIR (Logic in Reality) in the following points:<u></u><u></u></font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">1.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information
generation and transfer occur in nature as a natural process that is
constituted by and requires energy.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">2.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information
is present throughout nature, but its conversion to meaning requires organisms
capable of recursive processing of it.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">3.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Meaning
is constituted by all the information valuable to a living organism for its
survival, reproduction and well-being.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:88.5pt;line-height:normal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:windowtext">4.<span style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">Information
processes follow principles applicable to energy and energetic processes in
general <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p style="text-indent:0in;line-height:normal"><b><span style="color:windowtext"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></b></p>
<p style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Many authors have noted the complexity of information
and the difficulty of giving a ‘single, clear’ definition of it. Attempts to do
so are typical of standard substance ontologies, where firm definitions –
identities - are automatically given preference. The failure of such attempts
suggests that a major categorial error is being made. I therefore made the
following lapidary statement:<u></u><u></u></font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p style="text-indent:35.4pt"><b><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Meaningful information is reality in potential form.<u></u><u></u></font></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span lang="EN-GB">It is
derived from the Lupasco/LIR conception of consciousness which basically looks at the real dialectical interactions in and between
internal and external, and internalizing and externalizing processes as they
move between potentiality and actuality.</span><u></u><u></u></font></p></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">I suggest that the above can be placed in relation to Christophe's Systemic Theory of Meaning, most recently of March 2020, (his reference MENITA-7 below), which constitutes the primarily epistemological part of a more complete theory embodying my ontological ideas as well.</font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">These fit well, at least in my view, with Christophe's treatment of anxiety in which potential states are critical, also for emergence.</font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes,</font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph</font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b><br></b></font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><b>De :</b> Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>></font></div><div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 18:26<br><b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> RE: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font>
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<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph, </font></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm"><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">We can agree that a process transforms an input into an output.<br> Reverse engineering, as I know it, is a tool to improve processes. We know what we want at the output. We look at how the process builds it in order to see if it is the best way to do so (other ways may exist and be better). <span> </span><br> The output is then the starting point. It needs to be clearly defined and understood to address possible improvements of the process that builds it.<br> Our case is about an evolutionary process that transforms meaningless states present in a-biotic matter into meaningful states present in living matter. We need there a precise definition of what is expected as output of the process (meaningful information) in order to look at how the evolutionary process may have produced it. <br> </font></span></p><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"> Best
<br> Christophe
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<div id="gmail-m_6609837730738470278gmail-m_-399782940630305315x_appendonsend"></div>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 15:12<br><b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out. OFF-LINE for one point</font>
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<div>
<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Before giving a full response to your very promising note, please let me ask you one question about reverse engineering: is it really necessary to know the <i>outcome </i>of the process, which may be difficult or impossible? If Information IS Meaning, then the relative weight of actual and potential defines the probability of an outcome, not the outcome itself. Qu'est-ce que tu en dit?
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Best,
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph<br>
</font><blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">
----Message d'origine----
<br> De : <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>
<br> Date : 13/03/2022 - 14:46 (CEST)
<br> À : <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<br> Cc : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>
<br> Objet : RE: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out
<br>
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<p style="margin:0cm;background-image:initial;background-color:white;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="color:black;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thanks Joseph for your position. <span> </span><br><br> If I understand you well:<br> 1) There is information and meaning in our world (I&M).<br> 2) There is no information nor meaning in an a-biotic/inert world.<br> 3) In that a-biotic/inert world there is only “potential for<span> information as meaning”.<br> 4) Information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground.<br><br> In addition, I feel we can say that:<br> a) I&M can be defined (<a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENITA-7&data=04%7C01%7C%7C51d6eef991104b4f37b108da04fb8e0e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637827775706215913%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=e2LmaRbblxmlDLTa90ByDnVicS4oek6hA%2Bjm4g4qb8c%3D&reserved=0" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" target="_blank">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENITA-7</a>).<br> b) Having from Terry his definitions for I&M would allow a better understanding of the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and of the “process of emergence”.<br> This is about the well known reverse engineering activity where the outcome of a process is available, and when we look for some understanding about the process itself. The more we know about the outcome of the process, the more we can pretend understanding the process.<br> Here we need to clearly know the outcome of the process. We need definitions for I&M by Terry. Their availability is needed to look at understanding the “potential for<span> information as meaning” and the “process of emergence”.<br><br></span><span lang="EN-US">All the best </span></span></span></font></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;background-image:initial;background-color:white;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><span style="color:black;border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Christophe</span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></span></p>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><b>De :</b> <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br><b>Envoyé :</b> dimanche 13 mars 2022 11:51<br><b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a> <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br><b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>; <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a> <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs. One Way Out</font>
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">There is one way out of the dilemma which has not been directly refuted. When Christophe and others ask if can we talk of information in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world, if information means something actual, present, the answer is no. If one asks instead did
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">An additional statement must be added, otherwise the above is no more than a trivial tautology. It is that information is defined in the process of its emergence from some energetic ground. Since no process, nothing <i>in process</i> is complete, complete and <b>incomplete </b>parts of the process are present simultaneously and dynamically. The locus of this "nascent" information is the detailed physico-chemical structure of the living entities involved and their non-living constituents. These or parts of them move from actual to potential and <i>vice versa </i>and this movement is what ultimately defines their meaning.
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">One reading of the above is that I have given a new interpretation of the nature of a sign. I would gladly accept this, provided it can be subsequently decided whether or not the concept of sign adds further information. It may not.
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Thank you and best wishes,
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Joseph
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----Message d'origine----
<br> De : <a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>
<br> Date : 13/03/2022 - 00:02 (CEST)
<br> À : <a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<br> Objet : [Fis] How Molecules Became Signs
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<font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Dear Friends,
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<span style="display:inline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"><font size="3" face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">that war is a horrible drama for innocent civilians. And I agree with your comments.<br> Our FIS discussions cannot bring much help to that human drama, but our tentative analysis of what is “information” may somehow lead to a better understanding of human motivations guide behaviors. </font><br><font style="font-size:12pt" face="Times New Roman, serif"> Let me add another comment to Terry’s work. </font><br></span><b style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US"><br></span></b><a style="font-size:14.6667px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US">Dear Terry</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(42,42,42)" lang="EN-US">, <br> In addition to my Feb 23 post I would appreciate some information on parts of your paper I may not have understood that well. <br> Regarding the concept of information, you consider that information in a pragmatic-functional sense can be understood in terms of molecular evolution. <br> This brings to consider that “information” is present in an a-biotic or pre-biotic world (a purely molecular world). Such pre-biotic world has existed before the emergence of life in our universe. But can we talk of information and meaning, of signs, in such a world? How should they be understood in a purely material world devoid of living entities? <br> As said,<span> </span>it would be nice if you could clarify these points by making available definitions for information, meaning and sign in such an a-biotic world. This would allow a better understanding of your starting point.<br> Also, I do not see that well using the Peircean term of “Interpretant” for an inert world. We know that the Interpretant (the meaning) needs an Interpreter (the meaning generator). So introducing Interpretants in your paper also brings to introduce Interpreters in an inert world. Your sentence “In Peircean terms, this amounts to asking what sort of molecular system is competent to produce the Interpretants” is equivalent to: “what sort of molecular system is competent to generate meanings”. I’m not sure that meaning generation by a molecular system <span style="display:inline;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> in a purely material and inert world </span>can be clearly understood by today science or philosophy. And I do not remember Peirce theory of sign being about inert matter. Could you tel us more about your position on these subject? <br> Thanks again for your time <br> Christophe</span><br></span>
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