<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Cari Karl,
Giuseppe, Loet e Tutti,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">sento il
bi-sogno di ringraziarVi perché, finalmente avete posto le premesse per un confronto
basato sulla musicale armonia dell’accordo o del dis-accordo. Io, da “poverino
esponenziale” quale sono non mi scandalizzo se v’è differenza tra le cose
formali e sostanziali. Sono necessarie le une e le altre con la consapevolezza
che è la differenza che fa la differenza. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Il mio </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">pensiero pensante</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> di economista
mi ha sempre convinto che le persone, le idee e le cose valgono per la loro
forma, funzione e struttura. Tutte qualità che consentono di affrontare i
problemi-sistemi complessi, non lineari e lontani dall’equilibrio. Ma fra
tutte, a mio parere, a partire dal platoniano Aristotele, primeggia la forma,
più o meno topologica di reymanniano-einsteniana memoria, responsabile
dell’unificazione spazio-tempo</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Insomma, come
ho proposto tante volte nella mia ricerca scientifica in-form-azione o meglio
tras-in-(de)form-azione si </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">definisce</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">-</span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">significa</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> sempre e per tutti un dare o prendere o perdere forma nello stesso
spazio o in diverso tempo. Da qui l’espressione di </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">forma del valore</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> o </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">valore della forma</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> di stragrande rilevanza (non solo economica).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Cosa ben
diversa dalla </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">definizione</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">, ma complementare ad essa, è la </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">misurazione </span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">che può essere </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">matematica</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> (soprattutto nelle scienze fisiche,
termo-dinamiche, statistiche e perfino economiche), </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">genetica</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> (nelle scienze bio-eco-logiche) e </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">semantica</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> (nelle
scienze storico-culturali, sociali, etc.): credo che non sia un mistero per
nessuno ricordarsi che Shannon non ha definito il concetto di informazione, ma
l’ha semplicemente(?) bit-misurato. Forse avrebbe fatto meglio se l’avesse </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">valutato</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">, non
misurato, rifacendosi alla S<i>cienza della logica</i> di Hegel e riscoprendone
il significato di </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">quantità qualitativa</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> o di </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">qualità quantitativa</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Per ultima,
non nel senso di peggiore, dico qualcosa sull’economia, dato che per bontà di
Karl, “è piacevole parlare con gli economisti”. Ma quali economisti? Con molta
modestia, ma senza falsi infingimenti, dico che quelli esclusivamente,
utilitaristi, edonisti, materialisti, egoisti, etc., hanno, magari senza
volerlo, contribuito ad aumentare in maniera enorme la ricchezza dei ricchi e
la povertà dei poveri. Facendo mia la prospettiva onto-logica di Giuseppe, ho
inventato un’esagonale e matriciale teoria del valore-informazione che
attribuisce valore ai beni che sono, più o meno, </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">belli</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">, </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">buoni</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">, </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">giusti</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">, </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">legali</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">, </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">utili</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> e </span><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">veri.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Ringrazio
Tutti, ma in modo speciale Pedro per aver creato questa nobile piattaforma di
confronto dialogico in cui ho potuto, senza alcuna discriminazione e pur
scrivendo in italiano, esporre la mia Nuova economia.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Un abbraccio
affettuoso e riconoscente.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:justify;text-indent:14.2pt;line-height:normal;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Francesco</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno lun 7 mar 2022 alle ore 07:19 Francesco Rizzo <<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Karl, Giuseppe, Loet and All,<br>I feel the need to thank you because, finally, you have set the premises for a comparison based on the musical harmony of the agreement or disagreement. As the "exponential poor man" that I am, I am not shocked if there is a difference between formal and substantial things. Both are necessary with the awareness that it is the difference that makes the difference. <br>My thinking as an economist has always convinced me that people, ideas and things are valid for their form, function and structure. These are all qualities that make it possible to deal with problems-systems that are complex, non-linear and far from equilibrium. But among all of them, in my opinion, starting from Plato's Aristotle, the most important is the form, more or less topological, of Reymannian-Einstenian memory, which is responsible for the unification of space and time.<br>In short, as I have proposed many times in my scientific research, in-form-action or rather trans-in-(de)form-action is defined as always and for everyone a giving or taking or losing of form in the same space or in different times. Hence the expression of form of value or value of the form of great importance (not only economic).<br>What is very different from the definition, but complementary to it, is the measurement that can be mathematical (especially in the physical, thermo-dynamic, statistical and even economic sciences), genetic (in the bio-eco-logical sciences) and semantic (in the historical-cultural, social sciences, etc.): I believe that it is not a mystery for anyone to remember that Shannon did not define the concept of information, but simply(?) bit-measured it. Perhaps he would have done better if he had evaluated it, not measured it, going back to Hegel's Science of Logic and rediscovering its meaning of qualitative quantity or quantitative quality.<br>Last, not in the sense of worst, I say something about economics, since out of Karl's goodness, "it is pleasant to talk to economists." But which economists? With great modesty, but without any false pretence, I say that those who are exclusively utilitarian, hedonistic, materialistic, selfish, etc., have, perhaps unwittingly, contributed to an enormous increase in the wealth of the rich and the poverty of the poor. Making Joseph's onto-logical perspective my own, I invented a hexagonal and matrix theory of value-information that attributes value to goods that are, more or less, beautiful, good, just, legal, useful and true.<br>I thank everybody, but especially Pedro for having created this noble platform of dialogical confrontation where I could, without any discrimination and even writing in Italian, expose my New Economy.<br>An affectionate and grateful embrace.<br>Francesco<br><br><br><br>Translated with <a href="http://www.DeepL.com/Translator" target="_blank">www.DeepL.com/Translator</a> (free version)<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno dom 6 mar 2022 alle ore 16:45 Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><span>More
Terminology 20220306<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Thanks to Francesco for inviting clarification on
some terms.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Francesco:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36pt;margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span>* One must discern what is actual information
(taking or shaping) or meaning or news.<span></span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Presently, for <b><i>‘information’</i></b><i> </i>we have only <i>one
{definition, explanation, interpretation, understanding, word,</i> <i>algorithm,
etc.}</i> the meaning of which can be interpersonally communicated. The most
neutral and interpersonally acceptable <b>definition</b> is that what one reads
out of regarding the Figure depicting the Sequence <b><i>A242615</i></b><i>, </i>or
the Sequence itself. There exists a discongruence inbuilt into properties of
cohesive assemblies. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>The situation is comparable to that what Lucy and her contemporaries
were confronted with as they discovered that <b>fire</b> gives warmth and does
other things. Before they could split off the finer properties of this newly
discovered, partly natural, partly in the power of humans, something they were
recognising as a separate entity, they used one and the same word for all
shades and colors of that experience.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>We have discovered a powerful natural phenomenon, like Lucy <i>et al </i>have
discovered the concept of <b>warmth</b>. Warmth is something that is there or
is not there, is a property of the things, and then again can be man-made, can
be imagined and can be experienced, and we can speak about it as an abstract
concept, related to other abstract concepts, and we can observe it to have a
meaning, an aboutness, for the simplest organisms and for our babies.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Today, we have the same situation vis-à-vis <b>information. </b>Information
is something that is there or is not there, is a property of the things, and
then again can be man-made, can be imagined and can be experienced, and we can
speak about it as an abstract concept, related to other abstract concepts, and
we can observe it to have a meaning, an aboutness, for the simplest organisms
and for our babies.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>To restate in a simple fashion:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:medium none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="width:226.55pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b>Lucy
and her contemporaries<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:226.55pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b>We
and our contemporaries<span></span></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:226.55pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:226.55pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:226.55pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i>observed<span></span></i></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:226.55pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i>observed<span></span></i></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:medium none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="width:113.15pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center">lightning<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.35pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center">fire<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center">message<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center">meaning<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:113.15pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.35pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><span> </span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:113.15pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.35pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i>generalised
into<span></span></i></b></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.6pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i>generalised
into<span></span></i></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><i><span> </span></i></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.6pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><i><span> </span></i></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center">warmth<span></span></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.6pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center">information<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:113.15pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.35pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i>We
now think this is<span></span></i></b></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.6pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i>We
now think this is<span></span></i></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i><span> </span></i></b></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.6pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i><span> </span></i></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><i>the
frequency of<span></span></i></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.6pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><i>the
extent and direction of<span></span></i></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.5pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><i><span> </span></i></p>
</td>
<td colspan="2" style="width:226.6pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="302" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><i><span> </span></i></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="4" style="width:453.1pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="604" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;text-align:center;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif" align="center"><b><i>displacements
of things from their idealised common places<span></span></i></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:113.15pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.35pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:113.15pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.35pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:113.3pt;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="151" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span style="color:white">Of this </span>Of this explanation,
only the term “idealised common places” needs a clarification, as the other
words of this composite sentence are deictically defined.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b><span>In Need of Terminology<span></span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>That we have not yet invented several words for realisations of the same
idea, like we managed to do it with realisations of the idea of warmth, is a
consequence of the fact that we have not noticed that the many different forms
have one common denominator. Be it Zeroes or Ones, <i>varietas </i>that <i>delectat,
</i>magnetic repellence – attraction, chemical structures and energy balances,
the common basis is that these all are <i>based on alternatives</i>. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>The basic idea of the <b>fundamental </b>existence of alternatives has
to be, well, <b>fundamental</b>. Its explanation must be such, <b>that a child
can understand it</b>, because children are able to understand fundamental
truths, upon which schools later elaborate. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>You know that you have two eyes. Our brain makes one picture of what the
two eyes see. The two pictures coming from the eyes are merged by our
cleverness that is born with us. When the pictures are well merged, we have a
background in which we can draw lines, triangles and more. Being clever, we
have built a world of ideas based on the picture that is made by our
cleverness, not on the two pictures that were made by our two eyes. If you
squint a bit, you see that these are indeed two pictures. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Now what the scientists call <i>information </i>is that what becomes
merged, what makes the two pictures merged. Does it go away, after having
served its purpose of contributing to the unified picture? Well, in the human
brain, it is recycled by being broken up in smaller and smaller parts, which
then can be reused. In your dreams you meet some parts that had been partially used,
not wholly assembled into unified pictures, but these combinations of
remainders and rests are of dubious value. If there is no recycling, it just
flows away (and that process is called entropy). <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>In an accounting sense, it does not go away. It will neither go away in
a closed group who have many relations among each other, like a cohesive
collection or your family and friends. If you are bored and want to play with
someone, you go and find someone who has time to play with you. Information
lies both in that that you could have been hungry or sleepy and not bored, and
in that what happens to you if you go and find someone <i>{to play with, to
feed you, to put you to bed}. </i>Information lies in the fact that it could
have been, can be, could be <i>otherwise. </i><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>We shall go on tomorrow talking about, and playing with dolls, an army
of dolls, and how we can exercise them, order them around and around. Maybe we
shall also use a video recorder and watch what is common among the manoeuvres
the dolls make. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span>Then we shall take sticks and stick them together. Then we shall fix
small sweeties on points in space onto which a doll regularly returns. After
some harrumphing, we shall say that the doll has a place it calls home, and
that we shall call that place to be his primary idealised common place. If that
place is in the Bazar, we shall see how much the dolls act as if alive, eagerly
exchanging this for that, because in their primary idealised common place, aka
home, some things are worth more, and they believe they are still at home. But
that shall be tomorrow, now go and sleep well.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b>Is this a Business Idea? Any crowdfunding?<span></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In actual fact, this type of explanation is necessary. Please,
Francesco, give me your opinion as an economist, whether a well-written, nicely
illustrated teaching book would be a success, economically. There are very many
people who want to learn to count in twelve easy steps, once they understand
that they need to learn to count more exactly, <i>(by ~ 1/10<sup>92</sup> %)</i>
because they need the knowledge and techniques of counting more exactly in
their jobs. <span> </span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">It is always a pleasure to talk to economists. In our trade,
the concept of value has the name ‘1 <i>util</i>’ and is completely dependent
on circumstances. Funny, what?<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All the best<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Karl<span></span></p>
</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Fr., 4. März 2022 um 14:56 Uhr schrieb Marcus Abundis <<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com" target="_blank">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Terry:<br><br>You begin your abstract with:<br>>“What sort of process is necessary and sufficient to treat a molecule as a sign?” This requires focusing on the interpreting system and its interpretive competence.<<br><br>And later:<br><br>> . . . molecules like DNA and RNA . . .. THESE MOLECULES [my emphasis] are not the source of biological information but are instead semiotic artifacts < <br>> onto which dynamical functional constraints have been progressively offloaded during the course of evolution. <<br><br>– My question: You are arguing SOME molecules are used as signs, no? I do not see where you clearly distinguish between molecules as directly functioning objects, versus molecules as signs, which leaves me wondering if you intend ALL molecules. If you are arguing for certain 'messenger molecules', that seems uncontroversial.<br>– The part '. . . onto which dynamical functional . . . ' I cannot understand. Are there more basic terms, appropriate to an Abstract, you might offer to clarify this?<br><br>On page 4: From previous exchanges, I still take exception to using 'closed system' thermodynamic models (without matter exchanged) to explain 'open system' (Life, with matter exchanged) vistas. This is especially true for your autogen, which relies on matter exchange. Further, all four fundamental forces break the second law's presumed entropic symmetry/equilibrium. One wonders why science notes 'open, closed, and isolated systems' if we are to just ignore their differences. A similar issue plagues information studies, where people often mix/confuse/skip-over different levels of abstraction without making clear distinctions.<br><br>On the remainder of the paper I again see your autogen model, which I have seen before and where I have no problems.<br>Still, I want to amplify Christophe's note on meaning – I think this might be a useful direction for expanding one's work. I am not sure what that looks like but I feel certain there is ground to explore there. When I first read your paper's title I was hoping you might begin to reductively explore specific molecular traits (real world) and how they affect such a system. I am unqualified to do this myself, but I look at this as the next place where 'heavy lifting' might happen to expand our thinking on 'theories of meaning'.<div><br></div><div>As before – thanks for your work!<br><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><table style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-size:14px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,proxima-nova-2,Tahoma,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(51,51,51);line-height:18px" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:0px;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto;height:30px"> </td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:0"><a href="http://about.me/marcus.abundis?promo=email_sig" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(43,130,173);text-decoration:none;display:inline-block" target="_blank"><table style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;border-spacing:0px" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:top;width:auto;line-height:1" valign="top" align="left"><img alt="--" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px none; outline: currentcolor none 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: block; width: 0px; height: 0px; overflow: hidden;" width="0" height="0"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-weight:bold;font-style:inherit;font-size:18px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,Proxima-Nova,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:1;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Marcus Abundis</div><div style="margin:3px 0px 0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:12px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,Proxima-Nova,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline"><img alt="http://" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px none; outline: currentcolor none 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; display: block; width: 0px; height: 0px; overflow: hidden;" width="0" height="0">about.me/marcus.abundis</div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:8px 0px 0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:top;width:auto;line-height:1" valign="top" align="left"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-align:right;background-color:rgb(197,208,224);height:4px"><img src="http://d13pix9kaak6wt.cloudfront.net/signature/colorbar.png" alt="" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px none; outline: currentcolor none 0px; font-style: inherit; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; float: right; display: block;" width="88" height="4"></div></td></tr></tbody></table></a> </div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px none;outline:currentcolor none 0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:0px;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto;height:20px"><br></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 6:02 PM Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues,<br><br>I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.<br><br>As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses: a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about” the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and empirically testable.<br><br>It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS community.<br><br>1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to appear epiphenomenal).<br>2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that constitutes the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new substrates is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive” capacity of a physical system.<br>3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational relationships (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior linked mutual information (iconic) and correlational information (indexical) relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive, providing a scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational depth.<br>4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure), from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the evolution of genetic information.<br>5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.<br><br>I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS community to be included in future issues. <br><br>Thanks, Terry<br><div><br></div><div>In honor of the 80th birthday of our brilliant departed colleague: Jesper Hoffmeyer</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 2:38 PM Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues,<br><br>I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.<br><br>As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses: a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about” the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and empirically testable. <br><br>It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS community.<br><br>1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to appear epiphenomenal).<br>2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that constitutes the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new substrates is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive” capacity of a physical system. <br>3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational relationships (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior linked mutual information (iconic) and correlational information (indexical) relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive, providing a scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational depth. <br>4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure), from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the evolution of genetic information.<br>5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.<br><br>I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS community to be included in future issues. <br><br>Thanks, Terry<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 1:12 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear FISers,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are going to start the new discussion modality based on
specific publications. The initial contribution to comment is:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>"How Molecules Became Signs</b><b></b><b>."</b> By <b>Terrence
W. Deacon</b>, recently appeared in Biosemiotics.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At his earlier convenience, Terry will send a leading text to
start the discussion. <br>
</div>
<div>Now, given that there is a doi <a href="https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9</a>
(for freely downloading the paper), <br>
</div>
<div>interested parties may read in advance the publication.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best greetings to all,</div>
<div>--Pedro</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PS. Given that there are another three contributions
tentatively arranged, a time span of around 2-3 weeks could be
adequate. But we will see on the spot.<br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_860954952106381792gmail-m_51190807082502489gmail-m_9222692364173923574gmail-m_1049423486372955379gmail-m_-4879470826922797663gmail-m_7595816000984545838DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br> <table style="border-top:1px solid rgb(211,212,222)">
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley</div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley</div>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
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Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
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</blockquote></div>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>