<div dir="ltr">Dear Terry:<br><br>You begin your abstract with:<br>>“What sort of process is necessary and sufficient to treat a molecule as a sign?” This requires focusing on the interpreting system and its interpretive competence.<<br><br>And later:<br><br>> . . . molecules like DNA and RNA . . .. THESE MOLECULES [my emphasis] are not the source of biological information but are instead semiotic artifacts < <br>> onto which dynamical functional constraints have been progressively offloaded during the course of evolution. <<br><br>– My question: You are arguing SOME molecules are used as signs, no? I do not see where you clearly distinguish between molecules as directly functioning objects, versus molecules as signs, which leaves me wondering if you intend ALL molecules. If you are arguing for certain 'messenger molecules', that seems uncontroversial.<br>– The part '. . . onto which dynamical functional . . . ' I cannot understand. Are there more basic terms, appropriate to an Abstract, you might offer to clarify this?<br><br>On page 4: From previous exchanges, I still take exception to using 'closed system' thermodynamic models (without matter exchanged) to explain 'open system' (Life, with matter exchanged) vistas. This is especially true for your autogen, which relies on matter exchange. Further, all four fundamental forces break the second law's presumed entropic symmetry/equilibrium. One wonders why science notes 'open, closed, and isolated systems' if we are to just ignore their differences. A similar issue plagues information studies, where people often mix/confuse/skip-over different levels of abstraction without making clear distinctions.<br><br>On the remainder of the paper I again see your autogen model, which I have seen before and where I have no problems.<br>Still, I want to amplify Christophe's note on meaning – I think this might be a useful direction for expanding one's work. I am not sure what that looks like but I feel certain there is ground to explore there. When I first read your paper's title I was hoping you might begin to reductively explore specific molecular traits (real world) and how they affect such a system. I am unqualified to do this myself, but I look at this as the next place where 'heavy lifting' might happen to expand our thinking on 'theories of meaning'.<div><br></div><div>As before – thanks for your work!<br><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-size:14px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,proxima-nova-2,Tahoma,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(51,51,51);line-height:18px"><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:0px;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto;height:30px"> </td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:0"><a href="http://about.me/marcus.abundis?promo=email_sig" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(43,130,173);text-decoration:none;display:inline-block" target="_blank"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;border-spacing:0px"><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td align="left" valign="top" style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:top;width:auto;line-height:1"><img alt="--" width="0" height="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;display:block;width:0px;height:0px;overflow:hidden"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-weight:bold;font-style:inherit;font-size:18px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,Proxima-Nova,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:1;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Marcus Abundis</div><div style="margin:3px 0px 0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:12px;font-family:proxima-nova-1,Proxima-Nova,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;vertical-align:baseline"><img alt="http://" width="0" height="0" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;display:block;width:0px;height:0px;overflow:hidden">about.me/marcus.abundis</div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td align="left" valign="top" style="padding:8px 0px 0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:top;width:auto;line-height:1"><div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;text-align:right;background-color:rgb(197,208,224);height:4px"><img src="http://d13pix9kaak6wt.cloudfront.net/signature/colorbar.png" alt="" width="88" height="4" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;float:right;display:block"></div></td></tr></tbody></table></a> </div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline"><td style="padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;font-style:inherit;font-size:0px;font-family:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;width:auto;height:20px"><br></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 6:02 PM Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues,<br><br>I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.<br><br>As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses: a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about” the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and empirically testable.<br><br>It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS community.<br><br>1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to appear epiphenomenal).<br>2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that constitutes the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new substrates is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive” capacity of a physical system.<br>3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational relationships (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior linked mutual information (iconic) and correlational information (indexical) relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive, providing a scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational depth.<br>4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure), from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the evolution of genetic information.<br>5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.<br><br>I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS community to be included in future issues. <br><br>Thanks, Terry<br><div><br></div><div>In honor of the 80th birthday of our brilliant departed colleague: Jesper Hoffmeyer</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 2:38 PM Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues,<br><br>I am grateful to Pedro Marijuán for this opportunity to share this recently published Open Access paper with all of you. I look forward to this new FIS format for discussing recent publications, in addition to the annual solicited discussion paper, and am honored to be included. I hope this article is of interest. Here is a brief introduction.<br><br>As many scholars since the 1930s have pointed out, the concept of information is regularly used in at least three distinct and nested senses: a physical-statistical sense, a relational-referential sense, and a pragmatic-functional sense. In the paper “How molecules become signs” I show how the latter two senses can be understood in terms of molecular evolution, without invoking any atypical physical-chemical properties or an extrinsic observer perspective. In other words, I attempt to identify the minimal systemic properties that are necessary and sufficient for a physical system to be able to use a molecule (such as RNA) to be “about” the relationships between other molecules that are relevant to the continued existence of this same capacity. This is intended to provide what amounts to a proof of principle using a simple-as-possible model system, in which all processes are explicitly known and fully understood, and empirically testable. <br><br>It has a number of implications that may be of interest to the FIS community.<br><br>1. It implies that molecular template replication (such as invoked in RNA-world and related replicator-first theories) cannot be understood as providing intrinsically referential or functional information, except as interpreted by an extrinsic observer (causing its semiotic properties to appear epiphenomenal).<br>2. It shows how the constraints on the release of energy that constitutes the work required to reconstitute these same constraints in new substrates is the basis of what can be described as the “interpretive” capacity of a physical system. <br>3. It demonstrates how materially “displaced” informational relationships (such as in the case of DNA) depend on and grow out of prior linked mutual information (iconic) and correlational information (indexical) relationships, and how this can be hierarchically recursive, providing a scaffolding logic for the evolution of increasing informational depth. <br>4. It suggests that Crick’s so-called “central dogma” of biological information flow in organisms is the reverse of information accretion in evolution - i.e. where referential-functional information flows from dynamical constraints onto material constraints (e.g. molecular structure), from whole to part, and thus is offloaded from dynamics to structure in evolution. This may suggest new research paradigms for studying the evolution of genetic information.<br>5. It implicitly describes a mode of autonomous virus-like proto-life forms that may exist in conditions that are otherwise hostile to life, such as in deep petroleum deposits or other planets.<br><br>I look forward to insights and criticisms from the FIS community. The target article is also being published with commentaries, along with my responses, and the journal may continue to accept commentaries from the FIS community to be included in future issues. <br><br>Thanks, Terry<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 1:12 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear FISers,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are going to start the new discussion modality based on
specific publications. The initial contribution to comment is:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>"How Molecules Became Signs</b><b></b><b>."</b> By <b>Terrence
W. Deacon</b>, recently appeared in Biosemiotics.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At his earlier convenience, Terry will send a leading text to
start the discussion. <br>
</div>
<div>Now, given that there is a doi <a href="https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1007/s12304-021-09453-9</a>
(for freely downloading the paper), <br>
</div>
<div>interested parties may read in advance the publication.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best greetings to all,</div>
<div>--Pedro</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PS. Given that there are another three contributions
tentatively arranged, a time span of around 2-3 weeks could be
adequate. But we will see on the spot.<br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_1049423486372955379gmail-m_-4879470826922797663gmail-m_7595816000984545838DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br> <table style="border-top-width:1px;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(211,212,222)">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="width:55px;padding-top:18px"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td>
<td style="width:470px;padding-top:17px;color:rgb(65,66,78);font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Libre de virus. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" style="color:rgb(68,83,234)" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a> </td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<a href="#m_1049423486372955379_m_-4879470826922797663_m_7595816000984545838_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"> </a></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley</div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<br>
</blockquote></div>