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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Youri and FISers,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks for your reflections on humor.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Curiously, within the crazy variety of
themes my research group was focusing while I was active in IACS
institute, laughter got our sustained effort (Jorge Navarro worked
a lot on it).</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">We approached it as an evolutionary
phenomenon related to the extension and intensity of
inter-individual bonding in social groups.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">We published a couple of papers, an
introductory one:<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--"The Bonds of Laughter: A
Multidisciplinary Inquiry into the Information Processes of Human
Laughter"<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1010/1010.5602.pdf">https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1010/1010.5602.pdf</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And a more polished version in
Kybernetes journal:</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--"Laughing bonds: A multidisciplinary
inquiry into the social information processes of human laughter"</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/K-02-2016-0026/full/html">https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/K-02-2016-0026/full/html</a><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> Given the highly peculiar sound
structure of laughter and our neuroscientific hypotheses, we had
contemplated its possible application as an auxiliary tool in the
detection, diagnostic, and prognostic on several mental disorders
(particularly in depression). We developed an ad hoc experimental
methodology, applied to a competitive research project, and got
the project and very promising applied results--with a stream of
publications. For instance: "Validation of laughter for diagnosis
and evaluation of depression". In: <a class="nova-legacy-e-link
nova-legacy-e-link--color-inherit
nova-legacy-e-link--theme-decorated"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Journal-of-Affective-Disorders-0165-0327">Journal
of Affective Disorders</a> 160(1–3):43–49 DOI:<a
class="nova-legacy-e-link nova-legacy-e-link--color-inherit
nova-legacy-e-link--theme-decorated" target="_blank"
href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jad.2014.02.035"
rel="noopener">10.1016/j.jad.2014.02.035</a></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In spite of the dissolution of our
group, the project is still potentially alive. There is an
important hospital of Madrid willing to work on our methodology
& software and finally develop , say, a "commercial" program
and App. (Other partners would be very welcome!)<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">About humor, I have always had a high
respect for it; as being related to laughter mechanisms, it
differs in the importance of language, meaning, and social
context. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Probably our main research hypothesis
applies there, but it should have more development and
sophistication. The evolutionary context of "play" becomes
central.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Humor appears essentially as a play
with words (also images, or actions) that by the the act of
playing "degrade" the usual serious thing to a childish or
abstruse occurrence, making then a strong contrast. The difficult
point is that it has to be solved "positively" out from a
benevolent or distanced position. Otherwise it becomes sarcasm or
just malevolent ridicule. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Humor in science is not welcome as
Youri comments. I think the enormous bureaucratization and
technologization of our profession matters quite a bit.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">In any event, as long as playing is
sufficiently maintained and welcome as a social attitude in adults
too --and not condemned-- there is some hope...</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 06/02/2022 a las 16:31, Youri Timsit
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DE25A53A.37B08%25youri.timsit@mio.osupytheas.fr">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Humour, systems and information
Dear all,
All these discussions around humour could lead to the following question:
Does humour in a given system contain information about itself and about
the system to
which it is addressed?
In system, we can for example include religion, science or art or try to
extend this
reflection to any physical system and thus find an equivalent of humour in
biology, physics, mathematics and information theory.
Any system contains a series of rules and conventions that give it
structure and maintain
consistency. One might, at first glance, suggest that humour is an element
that
endangers the order of this structure. In one way or another, it questions
and
challenges certain rules, plays with conventions and thus undermines the
established order in a given system.
Of course, there are certainly different categories of humour... (I am not
familiar with
the philosophy of humour, nor with the work that has considered the place
of
humour in information theoryŠ)
Let's take, for example, a play on words: a shift in meaning turns a
discourse on its head,
but also the entire semantics, the entire edifice of a language, and this
is
perhaps why it can make people laugh, it's associated with the vertigo of
the
order of a world that vanishes in a fraction of a second. What suddenly
makes
one laugh? the awareness that nothing holds together?
Umberto Ecco, the great semiotician, placed humour - the laughter of
Christ - at the centre
of his novel 'The Name of the Rose'. He showed that religious orthodoxy
left
little room for humour, which could threaten its coherence and very
existence.
In Western music, another system based on multiple conventions ranging
from the rules of
harmony to bourgeois decorum in concert halls, humour has little place. A
musical performance, such as a classical music concert or an opera, would
be
the place of a musical discourse of course, but also of a ceremony, a
ritual
even, intended to reinforce the established order, the social structuring
of
the Western bourgeoisie. It is very rare that humour and derision disrupt
these
ceremonies (see the movie of F. Fellini, Prova d¹orchestra).
However, some composers have made a point of teasing out these
rituals: Haydn, for example, broke with protocol in his 'farewell
symphony',
where the musicians leave one by one before the end of the piece... the
opposite can be seen in the film The Concert (2009, Radu Mihaileanu),
where the
two trumpeters arrive late with large bags filled with jars of sweet and
sour
pickles at the Théâtre du Chatelet of Paris. These scenes create a comic
effect that shakes up the order and rituals of the Viennese or Parisian
upper
middle class in a bittersweet way. The humour here carries a message: it
disturbs, disrupts and questions conventions, but also the conventions
associated with 20th century musical representations.
Science, like religion, is not conducive to humour: the seriousness of
scientific
theories and the experiments that are supposed to demonstrate them do not
tolerate humour. However, a scientific theory should be, Œin theory¹,
refutable
(Popper) and in this respect, ephemeral.... Being aware of the brevity of
existence should however encourage a certain distance, humour and
derision...
but unfortunately, we rarely laugh at a scientific conference. Most
researchers
take themselves very seriously and it must be admitted that you don't come
to a
seminar to have a laughŠ
I would dream of a congress where after the conferences, actors or clowns
would take up
our speeches by caricaturing them... this would create a more cordial
atmosphere between researchers. David Lodge, in a "small world", also
made fun of scientific rituals, we should make all students read it...
With his Cantatrix Sopranica, George Perrec has
made a mockery of scientific protocol! A magnificent parody of an article
published in Nature, with colourful bibliographic
references and a beautiful caricature of the scientific method that is both
serious and grotesque. Serious and Grotesque are unfortunately the
qualifiers
that one could attribute to many articles published in "Great"
journals... and that one finds retracted quite early (see the Lancet
episode).
The established order and the Narcissism of researchers (see Science,
narcissism and the quest for visibility from Bruno Lemaitre; DOI:
10.1111/febs.14032) is a major obstacle to humour in research.
Thus, one could hypothesise here that humour contains indispensable
information: this
information challenges and shakes up the rigid rules of a system and
allows it
to evolve.... If we extrapolate to biology, the appearance of a mutation, a
sequence shift, would therefore be a form of humour... ? the humour of DNA?
Youri
Le 06/02/2022 12:00, « <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a> on behalf of
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a> » <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.esonbehalfoffis-request@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es on behalf of
fis-request@listas.unizar.es></a> a écrit :
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [External Email] Re: Fis Digest, Vol 85, Issue
16--CLOSING (Loet Leydesdorff)
2. Re: [External Email] Re: Fis Digest, Vol 85, Issue
16--CLOSING (Francesco Rizzo)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 11:13:14 +0000
From: "Loet Leydesdorff" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><loet@leydesdorff.net></a>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>, fis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
Subject: Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: Fis Digest, Vol 85, Issue
16--CLOSING
Message-ID: <emba24b591-9376-42ee-bc49-0d7eff2db1b2@pc2014>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
Dear Karl,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">The Lecture by Youri has opened many approaches towards understanding
the general concept of information, specifically in a biologic context.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">The concept of information, defined specifically in a biological context
is for that very reason not the general concept of information. This
confusion does not help for the understanding. In economics, for
example, one should not work with a biological concept of information.
Information can be measured in bits and bytes. I have not heard a single
argument in this discussion of how the biological theorizing leads to
(proposals for) the measurement of information. Without the beginning of
an operationalization, the theory remains a pure philosophy. I don't
think that one should go for a biological philosophy, including social
darwinism etc.
Best,
Loet
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 14:59:24 +0100
From: Francesco Rizzo <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com"><13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com></a>
To: Loet Leydesdorff <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><loet@leydesdorff.net></a>
Cc: fis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a>
Subject: Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: Fis Digest, Vol 85, Issue
16--CLOSING
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Caro carlo e Cari tutti,
nessuna scienza dell'informazione, compresa quella di Shannon, pu? basarsi
sull'esattezza delle misurazioni delle variabili dei fenomeni
che analizza e studia, figuriamoci l'economia. D'altra parte all'economia
interessano pi? le valutazioni che le misurazioni. Cio? il prezzo
o valore di mercato di un bene (capitale) pu? calcolarsi tenendo conto
dell'affidabil?t? e della probabilit? dei dati della cosiddetta realt? di
mercato e dei comportamenti degli operatori economici (acquirenti e
venditori) che, fra l'altro, stabiliscono un rapporto di complementarit?
con i beni economici medesimi.. Nascono cos? i valori normali dal punto di
vista soggettivo, sottesi. da un'economia quantistica.
Questo per?, come economista, non mi ha impedito di elaborare una teoria
del valore basata sulla legge dell'informazione in uno con
il processo produttivo di tras-in-formazione, di cui la Fis si ?
(pre)occupata in passato.
La legge generale e universale dell'informazione consiste nel prendere o
nel dare forma a tutto e a tutti: alle persone, alle idee e alle cose-.
Sulla base di questo procedimento che, in maniera interattiva e
relazionale coglie il relativo valore delle differenze, ? possibile
esprimere
giudizi di valore, pi? o meno attendibili. Quindi v'ha una sola legge
dell'informazione, ma infiniti modi di misurarla-valutarla.
Spetta alle diverse discipline teoriche o alle pratiche operative darsi le
norme o regole ad-atte alle proprie specifiche misurazioni o valutazioni.
Ad es. gli economisti matematici, che a partire dal diciannovesimo secolo
hanno incominciato ad applicare il calcolo infinitesimale al fine di
quantizzare-quantificare le variabili della produzione e della
distribuzione della ricchezza, sono in irreversibile crisi, in grande
sfacelo, fuori strada,
perch? incapaci di comprendere e vedere-leggere la realt? economica
capitalistica.
Vi chiedo scusa se sono stato pi? lungo di quanto volevo essere.
Un abbraccio
Francesco
Il giorno sab 5 feb 2022 alle ore 12:13 Loet Leydesdorff <
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> ha scritto:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Dear Karl,
The Lecture by Youri has opened many approaches towards understanding
the
general concept of information, specifically in a biologic context.
The concept of information, defined *specifically *in a biological
context is for that very reason not the *general *concept of
information.
This confusion does not help for the understanding. In economics, for
example, one should not work with a biological concept of information.
Information can be measured in bits and bytes. I have not heard a single
argument in this discussion of how the biological theorizing leads to
(proposals for) the measurement of information. Without the beginning
of an
operationalization, the theory remains a pure philosophy. I don't think
that one should go for a biological philosophy, including social
darwinism
etc.
Best,
Loet
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