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.quote { margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; border-left: 5px #ebebeb solid; padding-left: 0.3em; }--></style></head><body><div><span class="ILfuVd NA6bn"><span class="hgKElc">he error rate during DNA replication is as low as 10<sup style="">−</sup><sup style="">9</sup> to 10<sup style="">−</sup><sup style="">11</sup> errors per base pair. </span></span></div><div><span class="ILfuVd NA6bn"><span class="hgKElc">Source: </span></span><a href="https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=error+dna+replication" style="font-size: 11pt;">https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=error+dna+replication</a></div><div><span class="ILfuVd NA6bn"><span class="hgKElc"><br /></span></span></div><div><span class="ILfuVd NA6bn"><span class="hgKElc">Yet, this is the source of mutation and drives evolution. </span></span></div>
<div>Best, Loet</div><div><br /></div><div id="signature_old"><div id="x5c3bb6098d8041c">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><b><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><a href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508"></a><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">Loet Leydesdorff</span></font></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><b style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;">________________________________</font></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam <br />
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><font style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" style="">loet@leydesdorff.net </a>; <a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" style="">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a></font>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><br /></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><b><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;">"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discursive Knowledge" at</font></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:normal;" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><b><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></font></b></p>
<b><font size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><a href="https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-3-030-59951-5" style="">https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-3-030-59951-5</a> (Open Access)</font></b></div><div id="x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" style="font-size: 10pt;"><b><a href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508" style="">https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508</a> (Hardcopy)</b></font></div><div id="x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8"><font face="Tahoma" style="font-size: 9pt;" size="1"><br /></font></div><div id="x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8"><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" style="line-height:normal;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);"><font size="1" style="font-size: 9pt;"><span style="font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a></span><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></font></p><span><font size="1" style="font-size: 9pt;">
</font></span><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" style="line-height:normal;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);"><font style="font-size: 9pt;"><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><font size="1" style="font-size: 9pt;">ORCID: <a href="http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098" style="">http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098</a>; </font></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></span></font></p><span>
</span><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" style="line-height:normal;background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0);"></p></div>
</div></div><div><br /></div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "Louis Kauffman" <<a href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com">loukau@gmail.com</a>></div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a></div>
<div>Cc: <a href="mailto:robert.marty98@gmail.com">robert.marty98@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:ehres@u-picardie.fr">ehres@u-picardie.fr</a>; <a href="mailto:ricottam@etrovub.be">ricottam@etrovub.be</a>; <a href="mailto:jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com">jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com</a>; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>; <a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a></div>
<div>Sent: 10/3/2021 8:02:16 AM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Fis] CODE DISCUSSION. A Mini-Synthesis</div><div><br /></div>
<div id="x3a47df815a82425" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><blockquote cite="F6C85F0F-A570-47C1-9D56-20AB8F9D4320@gmail.com" type="cite" class="cite2">
Indeed recursive change is essentially always on a spiral where there is change both in what acts and what is acted upon.<div class="">Overly simple models may give the impression that the results are just cycles or that the processes themselves are not subject to change.</div><div class="">There has been a lag between what are good actual depictions of change and recursion and the oversimplified models.</div><div class="">For example, in economics it has long been assumed that the markets can be described objectively in terms of actors who behave entirely rationally an all have the same information.</div><div class="">This is nonsense but makes some calculations easier for the economists. In practice, the very theories and ideas of the participants in the markets are part of the action of that market and so </div><div class="">contribute to its change and evolution. The same remarks apply to biological evolution. </div><div class=""><br class="" /><div class=""><br class="" /><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 2, 2021, at 10:39 AM, <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" /><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="3" class="">Dear All,</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="3" class="">This note addresses several of the issues
raised in your recent notes at once. It is a non-mathematical attempt to describe
a single recursive change rather than to model a complete process. It requires
a different picture of recursion in that a spiral and not circular path is
followed. Interdependence is present but it is between the different parts of
the spiral. The term cycle is acceptable only if it understood that, in
reality, no perfect loop, cycle or circle is possible.<o:p class="" xmlns:o="#unknown"></o:p></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="3" class=""> </font></span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', serif; font-size: inherit;" class="">I am looking, then, at a </span><i style="font-family: 'times new roman', serif; font-size: inherit;" class="">single</i><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', serif; font-size: inherit;" class=""> realization, exactly, something that was potential becoming
realized, actual, but with the capacity also to go from actual to potential. A “bird’s-eye
view” shows a certain dynamic quasi-symmetry, or quasi-periodicity, as the
parts of the system repeat, but not absolutely.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font face="times new roman, serif" size="3" class="">The fact that, as we all know, biological replication
is correct most of the time does not invalidate my thesis. First of all, it is
subject to error, and more importantly, at our macroscopic level, errors are as much the rule as the exception.</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font face="times new roman, serif" size="3" class="">I would very much welcome your comments,
especially, Plamen, a reference to HoTT that might be relevant.</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font face="times new roman, serif" size="3" class="">Thank you and best wishes,</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><font face="times new roman, serif" size="3" class="">Joseph</font></p><blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;" class="">----Message d'origine----<br class="" />De : <a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" class="">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br class="" />Date : 28/09/2021 - 19:34 (E)<br class="" />À : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="" />Cc : <a href="mailto:ricottam@etrovub.be" class="">ricottam@etrovub.be</a>, <a href="mailto:ehres@u-picardie.fr" class="">ehres@u-picardie.fr</a>, <a href="mailto:robert.marty98@gmail.com" class="">robert.marty98@gmail.com</a>, <a href="mailto:jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com" class="">jerry_lr_chandler@icloud.com</a>, <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a><br class="" />Objet : Re: [Fis] CODE DISCUSSION. A Slice of Life. OM<br class="" /><br class="" /><div class="moz-cite-prefix">
Dear All,
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As the discussion is getting more complex, I can only give a couple of brief responses to the issues raised by Lou and Jerry (I agree with Joseph's comments and appreciate them). Responding first to Lou, indeed
<i class="">distinctions</i> are a fundamental issue, also in the bioinformation world. Actually I have been considering --these last two decades or so-- that for living agents information appears as "distinction on the adjacent". Expressing distinctions as a result of recursion is new for me: I was following Karl's partitions, and was much interested in his notion of a limited number of multidimensional partitions depending on set size. This alternative (or complementary) recursive conceptualization can also be very interesting regarding two biological approaches I was recently intrigued with: the work on the emergence of syntax/meaning in the RNA sequences world by Witzany's, and in the algorithmic challenge of vertebrate immune systems having to distinguish between self and non-self--in a true Godelian puzzle (ongoing work by Sheri Markose). Probably the latter would accept presenting in our list. If there are expressions of interest I could tell her.
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And about Jerry's eleven paragraphs, I am afraid that such general questions may open excessively the discussion. Somehow, I was reminded of some past Century philosophers: Ortega y Gasset, Merleau-Ponty, and A.N. Whitehead. I am more familiar with the former --his "perspectivism". My personal translation is the "doctrine of limitation". Given the iron-limits of our cognition, every scientific approach becomes limited, specialized, and forced to multidisciplinary dialog. This rubbing among disciplines is a potent recombination engine that creates and destroys models, paradigms, and even entire fields. So, disciplines of natural science are not only formal/experimental constructs, but also social-historical bodies with singular idiosyncratic trajectories. Just looking at this very list we can watch what has happened with information discussions in last decades... Well, this is an indirect response. to Jerry's well crafted points and I would need more time to make a decent criticism.
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Finally, going back to codes, maybe they are the inner "constraints" to vehiculate the external information flows, versus the internal ones, so that the former are conveniently matched, processed, and solved. Talking in terms of "intelligence", both the natural intelligence of biological systems and the artificial intelligence of computer systems cannot handle their respective external information flows except by relying on a multitude of multi-level channeling codes. (??)
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Best regards,
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--Pedro
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in the way El 27/09/2021 a las 19:34, Jerry LR Chandler escribió:
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Pedro, List:
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So, there are formal, logical, philosophical, semiotic arguments to make about codes--OK, but if they do not consider this real world aspect of heterogeneity of processing architectures am afraid they will be of limited usefulness to approach the reliance of computers and living beings on codes.
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Best regards,
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--Pedro
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This sentence, in my mathematical judgement, gets to the essence of communication of artificial actions within humanity as a whole by using artificial symbol systems to create meaning that is informed by the intentions of the communicator with respect the capacities of potential receivers.
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In short, mathematics itself is merely one of the multitude of synthetic symbol systems that have emerged as a critical component of human cultures.
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The role of mathematics in human cultures started at least 4 millennia BC and has continued to grow.
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The parallel role of a second synthetic symbol representing
<b class=""> sounds</b>, alphabets and other alphabet-like encoding systems, lead to methods to record human history, human emotions, humans desires for the future (planning and philosophies of actions, such as anticipation.)
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Pedro, your brilliant sentence captures the very essence, in my opinion, of the central issue that is overlooked in most of the FIS exchanges because it
<b class=""> identifies</b> the common source of the diverse assertions that separate the meanings of the assertions to different recipients.
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The “lingua franca” of this List Serve is a theory of mathematically grounded “messages”, augmented with symbols for sounds. One might even conjecture that if we all had a
<b class="">homogeneous</b> understanding of how these iconic forms are understood, such as mathematical category theory, we would have complete foundation for the foundations of the information sciences!
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As you so adroitly point out, Pedro, the
<b class="">heterogenous</b> membership understand that symbol systems
<b class="">other than mathematics and alphabets</b> are used in the natural sciences and natural philosophy to communicate information between participants of this list. [" formal, logical, philosophical, semiotic arguments to make about code”]
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Why?
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Why are heterogenous symbol systems used in scientific communications about nature?
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Historically, how have the multitude of symbol systems emerged from alphabets and mathematics?
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How are these emergent properties of symbol systems used in the pragmatic work of the natural scientists?
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The philosophy of science of physics embraces the mathematical symbol system and asserts that all logical natural truths can be expressed in this language (Galileo). This philosophy has been embraced by many FIS contributors and grounds linguistically the forms of the encoded messages of both agreement and disagreement. The focus of the disagreements tend to be limited to such mathematical/physical terms, as entropy, excluded middle, number sequences, and meanings of formal logical terminology.
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The philosophy of the natural sciences rests on the pragmaticisms. Natural scientists assign meaning to semantic terms in order to identity the objects of nature understudy. To this end, natural scientists (including physicians) assign direct one to one correspondence relationships between semantic terms and sensory experiences (in addition to sensory experiences of sight and sound used for mathematical symbolic communications), other sensory experiences, such as smell, taste, touch, temperature, pressure, and intuitive feelings (for example, the touch of a loved one) are routinely used.
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In short, the ontology and epistemology of the symbolic forms of human symbolic codes extend far beyond narrow boundaries of the meanings of theological terms associated with the logics of mathematics and physics.
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In closing, Pedro I would pose a singular interrogative.
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Do these eleven paragraphs, taken as a whole, capture the essence of your intended meaning of the sentence quoted at the beginning of this message? My premise would be that in the conceptual architecture of my pragmatic use of codes and symbols in these brief paragraphs, I probably missed certain critical features of your intended meaning. Can you (or other readers) flag the multiplicity of defects?
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If so, you can move the conversation forward and expand on these concepts from your particular arithmetical, heterogenic, psychological, referential philosophy of communication (and also information) by either augmenting or rejecting parts of the architectures this semantic encoding of meanings of symbolic codes.
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Cheers
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Jerry
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Research Professor
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Krasnow Institute for Advanced Study
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(BTW, the philosophical roots of the modern notions of the concepts of evolutionary emergences of symbolic differences that encode differences can be associated with the terms introduced by philosopher, C S Mills, heteropathy ca 1843)
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" style="text-decoration: underline; color: blue;">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
-------------------------------------------------</pre>
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