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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">As the discussion is getting more
complex, I can only give a couple of brief responses to the issues
raised by Lou and Jerry (I agree with Joseph's comments and
appreciate them). Responding first to Lou, indeed <i>distinctions</i>
are a fundamental issue, also in the bioinformation world.
Actually I have been considering --these last two decades or so--
that for living agents information appears as "distinction on the
adjacent". Expressing distinctions as a result of recursion is new
for me: I was following Karl's partitions, and was much interested
in his notion of a limited number of multidimensional partitions
depending on set size. This alternative (or complementary)
recursive conceptualization can also be very interesting regarding
two biological approaches I was recently intrigued with: the work
on the emergence of syntax/meaning in the RNA sequences world by
Witzany's, and in the algorithmic challenge of vertebrate immune
systems having to distinguish between self and non-self--in a true
Godelian puzzle (ongoing work by Sheri Markose). Probably the
latter would accept presenting in our list. If there are
expressions of interest I could tell her.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And about Jerry's eleven paragraphs, I
am afraid that such general questions may open excessively the
discussion. Somehow, I was reminded of some past Century
philosophers: Ortega y Gasset, Merleau-Ponty, and A.N. Whitehead.
I am more familiar with the former --his "perspectivism". My
personal translation is the "doctrine of limitation". Given the
iron-limits of our cognition, every scientific approach becomes
limited, specialized, and forced to multidisciplinary dialog. This
rubbing among disciplines is a potent recombination engine that
creates and destroys models, paradigms, and even entire fields.
So, disciplines of natural science are not only
formal/experimental constructs, but also social-historical bodies
with singular idiosyncratic trajectories. Just looking at this
very list we can watch what has happened with information
discussions in last decades... Well, this is an indirect
response. to Jerry's well crafted points and I would need more
time to make a decent criticism. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Finally, going back to codes, maybe
they are the inner "constraints" to vehiculate the external
information flows, versus the internal ones, so that the former
are conveniently matched, processed, and solved. Talking in terms
of "intelligence", both the natural intelligence of biological
systems and the artificial intelligence of computer systems cannot
handle their respective external information flows except by
relying on a multitude of multi-level channeling codes. (??)<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best regards,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">in the way El 27/09/2021 a las 19:34,
Jerry LR Chandler escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:A1B9DDD1-CA7D-40BF-8A39-640305643382@icloud.com">
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Pedro, List: <br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
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0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">So, there are formal,
logical, philosophical, semiotic arguments to make
about codes--OK, but if they do not consider this
real world aspect of heterogeneity of processing
architectures am afraid they will be of limited
usefulness to approach the reliance of computers and
living beings on codes.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best regards,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">This sentence, in my
mathematical judgement, gets to the essence of communication of
artificial actions within humanity as a whole by using
artificial symbol systems to create meaning that is informed by
the intentions of the communicator with respect the capacities
of potential receivers. </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">In short, mathematics
itself is merely one of the multitude of synthetic symbol
systems that have emerged as a critical component of human
cultures. </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">The role of mathematics in
human cultures started at least 4 millennia BC and has continued
to grow. </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">The parallel role of a
second synthetic symbol representing<b class=""> sounds</b>,
alphabets and other alphabet-like encoding systems, lead to
methods to record human history, human emotions, humans desires
for the future (planning and philosophies of actions, such as
anticipation.)</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Pedro, your brilliant
sentence captures the very essence, in my opinion, of the
central issue that is overlooked in most of the FIS exchanges
because it<b class=""> identifies</b> the common source of the
diverse assertions that separate the meanings of the assertions
to different recipients. </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">The “lingua franca” of this
List Serve is a theory of mathematically grounded “messages”,
augmented with symbols for sounds. One might even conjecture
that if we all had a <b class="">homogeneous</b> understanding
of how these iconic forms are understood, such as mathematical
category theory, we would have complete foundation for the
foundations of the information sciences! </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">As you so adroitly point
out, Pedro, the <b class="">heterogenous</b> membership
understand that symbol systems <b class="">other than
mathematics and alphabets</b> are used in the natural sciences
and natural philosophy to communicate information between
participants of this list. [" formal, logical, philosophical,
semiotic arguments to make about code”]</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Why?</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Why are heterogenous symbol
systems used in scientific communications about nature?</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Historically, how have the
multitude of symbol systems emerged from alphabets and
mathematics?</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">How are these emergent
properties of symbol systems used in the pragmatic work of the
natural scientists?</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">The philosophy of science
of physics embraces the mathematical symbol system and asserts
that all logical natural truths can be expressed in this
language (Galileo). This philosophy has been embraced by many
FIS contributors and grounds linguistically the forms of the
encoded messages of both agreement and disagreement. The focus
of the disagreements tend to be limited to such
mathematical/physical terms, as entropy, excluded middle, number
sequences, and meanings of formal logical terminology.</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">The philosophy of the
natural sciences rests on the pragmaticisms. Natural scientists
assign meaning to semantic terms in order to identity the
objects of nature understudy. To this end, natural scientists
(including physicians) assign direct one to one correspondence
relationships between semantic terms and sensory experiences (in
addition to sensory experiences of sight and sound used for
mathematical symbolic communications), other sensory
experiences, such as smell, taste, touch, temperature, pressure,
and intuitive feelings (for example, the touch of a loved one)
are routinely used. </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">In short, the ontology and
epistemology of the symbolic forms of human symbolic codes
extend far beyond narrow boundaries of the meanings of
theological terms associated with the logics of mathematics and
physics. </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">In closing, Pedro I would
pose a singular interrogative.</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Do these eleven paragraphs,
taken as a whole, capture the essence of your intended meaning
of the sentence quoted at the beginning of this message? My
premise would be that in the conceptual architecture of my
pragmatic use of codes and symbols in these brief paragraphs, I
probably missed certain critical features of your intended
meaning. Can you (or other readers) flag the multiplicity of
defects?</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">If so, you can move the
conversation forward and expand on these concepts from your
particular arithmetical, heterogenic, psychological, referential
philosophy of communication (and also information) by either
augmenting or rejecting parts of the architectures this semantic
encoding of meanings of symbolic codes. </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Cheers</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Jerry </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Research Professor</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">Krasnow Institute for
Advanced Study</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class="">(BTW, the philosophical
roots of the modern notions of the concepts of evolutionary
emergences of symbolic differences that encode differences can
be associated with the terms introduced by philosopher, C S
Mills, heteropathy ca 1843) </div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
-------------------------------------------------</pre>
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