<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Along the road to rational thinking<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b>Wittgenstein</b> has cleared the workbench, established
tools and procedures for the work of communicating messages that are of a
technical nature. In fact, the whole of the present-day software industry is
based on his systematisation of what a logical sentence is, what it refers to
and how we can determine whether it is grammatically correct.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We have to make a step back and consider the <b>socio-cultural
context</b> in which what Wittgenstein said made news. Why was it necessary to
explicate such banalities that a correct sentence is correct? Why was it picked
up so much? What was the news?<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The ability to <b>speak in a comprehensible manner</b> is
called in the trade the <i>second
organisator</i>. Its definition is in the mnemonic: On his first birthday, the
child charms his parents by his first steps, on the second birthday with
two-word sentences.” The second organisator appears at a relatively late stage,
there were advances in self-consciousness in previous discrete steps. We call <i>first organisator </i>the passagere symptom
of being distressed if the caregiving person is not the mother. One can be
certain that the evocation from the memory works, the perception works, and the
distinguishing mechanism works too, evaluating correctly that something out of
the usual is taking place. Previously, the infant was not able to remember
differences, after the crisis, she will be used to it. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In sociocultural milestones, <b>Descartes </b>raises the
point of recognising one’s own existence. As the child understands the term “I”,
what is called the inner self is created. Descartes was a social success,
because he gave intelligible, transportable words to the feeling: I can think
for myself! This experience is hidden in each of us. Descartes stood up and
said: “No other person can make me think my own thoughts! There is something
which belongs only to me and it is decidedly separate to that what God,
Parents, Teachers, Friends, etc. say”. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The next step was <b>Newton</b>. His big news was that
things do not jump up and pursue one. There is neither telekinesis nor are Satanic
influences there that move things around! In the perception of the child, it is
a sea change to discover that changes are not always and there are different things
that do not change. The environment differentiates out successively in the
development of a new-born till kindergarten: at first, everything happens by
outside forces and circumstances. Out of this melange the infant learns the
distinction me – not me (predictably enough, the idea of a thing is the
contrast to that what is me, and this are the mammae of the mother, which
experience is the proto-object for all later diversifications.) The infant exercising
with her rattle familiarises her brain to the concept of mass and also to the
abstract idea of taking one’s own destiny in one’s own hand. Newton said, in
effect, look here, I can master things, the things no more master me!, which is
a very fine step in the development of the child’s faculties.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Now comes <b>Wittgenstein </b>and says – in many, artfully
crafted words! – listen, I can speak. I can even speak reasonably. Then he
digresses into the rules of speaking reasonably and ends with stating that the
ability to speak makes one maybe clever, but not wise. Anyone can create complicated
truth tables, syntax rules, decision trees and the like, because the <i>generative grammar </i>(Piaget, Chomsky) is
based on rules. Once you know the rules and have a vocabulary, you can speak.
The fact that a logical sentence is constructed formally correct does not say
anything about its semantic truth, wisdom, usefulness or ethical value. Why was
this statement so much useful?<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Each of these <b>trendsetters and influencers</b> fought the
demons of the general public and had slain the dragon of the time. In Descartes’
time, auto-determination as a philosophical concept was not yet present. One
was a property of the Supreme Being, of its representants, kings, lords, bishops,
sires, in many varieties. The ability to think with one’s own head had to be
discovered and proclaimed, in words of the ruling class. Descartes said: of the
many voices which I hear, I can distinguish my own inner voice. He cleared up superstition
and stated that he is able to create, formulate and use his own thoughts.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Newton had to delineate one’s relation to <b>inanimate
objects</b>. For a small child, nothing is inanimate, and the objective world,
as the child experiences it (the first time!) carries many surprises. To be
able to state, that things do not have any soul or volition of their own and
that they cannot be possessed, required courage. The child experiences a phase
of empowerment as it throws the doll around. The de-totemisation of previously mighty
totems, like spoons one was fed with, is a step towards mastery of the known
world. It is no more the ball which carries the action, but the child who can
aim the ball. The ultimate victory is in the reification of the object, in
which ultimately it is its mass what counts, whatever that is. Newton has
liberated us from a magic-mythical world.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">He who is proudly announcing that he can speak errorfree,
concise and comprehensibly, he had his new invention to sell into an <b>overcrowded
market</b>, in which many statements were present and no one knew what to
believe. There were the teachings of the Church, of the Emperor, the Dadaists,
the ideologues and the revolutionaries. The cacophony of the last years of the
Monarchy is legendary. As opposed to this multi-layered conflict of value
weighted discourses a calm voice outlining what is a reasonable speaking style,
with all its limitations, was a refreshing novelty. It is important that
someone stands up and says: we can also talk in a rational fashion.
Wittgenstein was the Miss Manners of scientific discourse on abstract subjects.
This is in itself not much, but it generally helps to observe the rules of
speaking clearly. The joy parents experience as the child says its first
grammatically correct complex sentence is not <i>what </i>the child has pointed at verbally, but <i>that </i>the child has understood generative grammatic. This joy is
thematised by Wittgenstein, <i>that </i>we
can form complex sentences which can be understood interpersonally. We can
speak to each other and we can understand each other. The more we observe the
formal correctness of the sentence, the less meaning it contains, until we
arrive at <i>a=a</i>, which says absolutely
nothing, but is correct to the extreme. The grammar rules have been found
practical for design and engineering input in the construction of computers,
but in a semantic understanding, Miss Manners does not contribute to any factual
discussions. Important is that one is happy that the child says: <b>I can speak</b>.
<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The next message of the child is: <b>look what I play with</b>.
It needs a friendly attitude, and it helps if one has had children of one’s
own, that one gives the child the time it needs to show what he has come up
with. If the child says: look, I have understood order! one should maybe take a
little time to be interested in what the child says. The brat has got hold of a
few dozen of tin soldiers and keeps reordering them. Out of the mouth of drunks
and of children come surprisingly innovative perspectives. The brat has built
an <b>order-detecting and order-producing toy</b> and is asking for an
opportunity to demonstrate it. Maybe we do live in a world, in a time, when order
is a trendy idea, like own thoughts, things not jumping around and ability to
communicate had in their times been an answer to their respective Zeitgeist
questions. It could well be, that a discussion of what is order is unavoidable.
The subject is looming on the horizon. The disinformation is, after all, an
unusual aberration, or is it a part of the package, like mimicry? Order touches
very much on value judgments. A neutral look at what order actually is, and how
it relates to patterns, predictability, periodicity and the like could give us
a boost.<span></span></p>
</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Do., 10. Dez. 2020 um 13:30 Uhr schrieb Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<u></u>
<u></u>
<u></u>
<u></u>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang="FR">
<div class="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">Dear
Wolfgang and All,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">The current situation, in the <u></u><u></u>U.S.<u></u><u></u> and elsewhere, reminded me of
Wittgenstein’s characterization of language ‘games’. Many people seem to like
to repeat this concept as conveying some kind of wisdom, knowledge, science -
whatever. I am sure you have all seen references to information ‘games’.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">I think this is a deadly <i><span style="font-style:italic">anti-social
</span></i>concept that detracts from the building and credibility of a needed
new synergy. If all things are ‘games’, and games are about winning and losing,
everything is about winning and losing and Trumpism has found its theoretical
foundation.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">As a tiny, minimum effort toward remediation, a word in use in the
Covid-19 context, I propose avoiding reference to Wittgenstein in the discussion
of serious issues. Wittgenstein’s doctrine has been called ‘anti-philosophy’;
in my opinion, this still gives it far too much value.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">If someone sees a way of using Wittgenstein to further the common
good, I would gladly change my view on this point.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">
<hr width="100%" size="2" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US">
Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Wolfgang Hofkirchner<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> jeudi, 10 décembre 2020
09:15<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Loet Leydesdorff<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> fis; Joseph Brenner<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] On
disinformation. Why disinformation survives</span></font><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">dear all, <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">so much discussion, so difficult to enter for me. let me just point to
a few issues only:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">@loet: your first question to me: how we can know what is the solution?
my answer: there are many hints, in particular, from sciences (as in
corona-crisis) but also from ancient wisdom – especially the chinese tianxua
with which i got acquainted since the work of tingyang zhao was published in
german this year – on what could be done globally and locally. but it needs an
effort by a collective intelligence making up a quorum for effectuating change,
and we don’t know how many people are needed and when it would work. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">your second question concerning the anthropological setting. my answer:
that’s just the disposition with which we are endowed by phylogenesis and which
we can cultivate. it’s just the possibility but it does not determine when and
if adaption to it wil be actualised.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">then an additional point @all of you: a) we can make a comparison:
today, it is up to us to make a choice whether or not we grasp the new task
before us – to build up global humanity on a metalevel. our ancestors were good
in making the choice to make the first steps toward humanity by detecting their
new kind of co-operation. b) what is good has to do with systems. systems are
after peter corning’s synergism hypotheis synergetic – otherwise they would not
be systems. if a system can’t provide synergy any more, it will decay. our
current situation can be analysed that we don’t have an overall system
providing synergy while all factions of mankind compete for synergies for their
own at the cost of synergy for the other parts, which is the cuse for all the
global challenges. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">finally, again @loet and joseph and others: as to binarism. i made an
attempt to categorise disinformation as failed information, using, like luhmann
his codes, opposites, but on a scale, to measure the quality of certain
manifestations of information types. you find the table and its description
here on the right side: <a href="https://gsis.at/projects/#InformationEthicsRS" target="_blank">https://gsis.at/projects/#InformationEthicsRS</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">thank you,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">w.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Am 09.12.2020 um 14:34 schrieb Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>>:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dear Joseph and colleagues, <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">I am not sure that I correctly understand you, but
I agree that one should not stay with binary distinctions. Dichotomous
variables provide a low scale for the measurement. Both Luhmann and
Spencer-Brown emphasize binary distinctions. Binary distinctions may have a
function at the epistemological level in order to discuss and hypothesize
relevant dimensions. In most cases, however, one can move forward, for
example to probabilities (0 < p < 1)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">For example, in empirical studies it is not so
fruitful to distinguish in a binary mode between true and false, or
payment/non-payment. Grey-shades are important. Some statements are
more true than others. One may have paid 10% of a bill.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">In addition to these methodological advantages of
moving to more precise measurement scales, the relation between
probability and Shannon's information theory is straightforward. Zeros and
ones do not provide information. p = 0.5 and 1 - p = 0.5 leads
precisely to 1 bit of information (H = - 0.5 log(0.5) - (l - 0.5) log(1 -
0.5) = 1/2 + 1/2 = 1. This is the definition of the
bit. 50/50 contains a maximum of information.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">The issue is the specification of uncertainty.
However, 0 log (0) and 1 log(1) are both zero. A binary approach does
therefore tend to distract from an empirical and numerical approach. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Loet<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252signature_old">
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252xd9ca58d1054144c">
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-weight:bold"><a href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508" target="_blank"></a></span></font></b><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Loet Leydesdorff</span></font></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="1" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">________________________________</span></font></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam <br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><font color="#954f72"><span style="color:rgb(149,79,114)">loet@leydesdorff.net<span> </span></span></font></a>;<span> </span><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank"><font color="#954f72"><span style="color:rgb(149,79,114)">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></font></a></span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma"><br>
<a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank"><font color="#954f72"><span style="color:rgb(149,79,114)">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</span></font></a></span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">ORCID:<span> </span><a href="http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098" target="_blank"><font color="#954f72"><span style="color:rgb(149,79,114)">http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098</span></font></a>;
</span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discursive
Knowledge" at</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Tahoma"><a href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508" target="_blank"><font size="2" color="#954f72"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(149,79,114)">https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508</span></font></a></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">------ Original Message ------<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">From: "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">To: "Mark Johnson" <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>;
"fis" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Cc:<span> </span><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Sent: 12/9/2020 10:10:38 AM<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Subject: RE: [Fis] FW: On disinformation. Why
disinformation survives<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252x86c0cd892f5a425">
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:1.75pt 0cm 5pt 2.9pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Dear Mark J. and Loet,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Your last two notes state very clearly the key properties of
the complex system of people and their capacities, interactions and
communications. It is a good place from which to continue the discussion. I
would just like to suggest that the latter can be made more fruitful if
explicit or implicit binary distinctions can be excluded from our common
‘language’:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" type="1" start="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" lang="EN-GB">The
conceptions of Spencer-Brown and Luhmann are formal (diagrammatic) and
epistemic. They do not describe the properties of real systems and the
interactions that prevail in them. They follow nothing but their own
semantic rules and incorporate pre-relativistic ideas of time and
space.<u></u><u></u></span></font></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" lang="EN-GB">It should
not be assumed that systems must provide<span> </span><i><span style="font-style:italic">complete<span> </span></span></i>descriptions
of themselves. Nothing real can be ‘completely’ described anyway, so
why suggest it as a criticism? Systems are characterized by<span> </span><i><span style="font-style:italic">both<span> </span></span></i>indeterminacy
and determinacy, and to call the former ‘unresolvable’ begs the
question.<u></u><u></u></span></font></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" lang="EN-GB">When Loet
writes: <span> </span></span></font><font color="black"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-GB">it is difficult
to tell someone else that s/he is misinformed</span></font><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" lang="EN-GB"> I think there is a
possible categorial confusion: it may indeed be difficult to say some
things to other people, but these things may be correct and it may be
necessary to say them, literally, for the common good. Please do not
imagine that I am somehow insulated from the probability (hopefully
low) of error. If I did not accept this probability,<span> </span><i><span style="font-style:italic">then</span></i><span> </span>I
could be criticized for being inconsistent, even<span> </span><i><span style="font-style:italic">prima facie<span> </span></span></i>misinformed.
I do not think this, and only ask that my approach be given<span> </span><i><span style="font-style:italic">no less attention</span></i><span> </span>than
what is paid to more familiar ones. <u></u><u></u></span></font></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:navy"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" lang="EN-GB">We are not,
at least I am not, experts in psychology who can define the pathology
of mental phenomena scientifically. (To call some two-dimensional
curves ‘pathological’ is pure metaphor.) Nevertheless, I think Mark’s
point 3 about a decline in variety, echoing Ashby, is an excellent
perspective since it describes things in terms of change. Just
following the line of my first sentence, it might be useful to point
out the necessity of limiting variety if it, too, grows out of
proportion.<span> </span><u></u><u></u></span></font></li>
</ol>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">As I look at what I have just written, the task of
distinguishing information and disinformation as<span> </span><i><span style="font-style:italic">types</span></i><span> </span>is no different from that of
identifying how they, and other binary pairs, are also similar and overlap.
The alternative is to make the kind of error ridiculed by Ionesco in a play
(I have forgotten which) in which several actors shout at once: “It’s not
this but that; it’s not this but that!”<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">
<hr width="100%" size="2" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><span><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></span><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US">Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]<span> </span><b><span style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of<span> </span></span></b>Mark
Johnson<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b><span> </span>mardi, 8 décembre 2020 22:42<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b><span> </span>fis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b><span> </span>Re: [Fis] FW: On disinformation.
Why disinformation survives</span></font><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dear Loet, all,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Yes it is complex - but fascinating, and throws up
some fascinating points about the meaningfulness of categorising
"disinformation".<font color="navy"><span style="color:navy"><u></u><u></u></span></font></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-GB">I can't see that it is necessary to distinguish
disinformation from information: this distinction seems at the wrong level
of analysis.<span> </span></span>Echoing
Joe's point that there is a difference between systemic viability
(altruism) and pathology, rather than specific messages being
disinformative or not, can I suggest the following:<u></u><u></u></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">1. Disinformation is a meta-systemic
categorisation of a systemic pathology;<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">2. To recognise its own pathology is to recognise
a systemic loss of variety and a reduced capacity to self-organise the
communication system in comparison to the past; This is the
"meaningfulness" the metasystem establishes in its own systemic
behaviour;<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">3. The meaning of disinformation, like all
meaning, results from the construction of a selection mechanism which
determines "this is disinformation". That selection mechanism
must be anticipatory, must it not? And for it to be anticipatory (for it to
foresee the pathological consequences of a pattern of decline in variety),
the pattern of its own historical development (or decline) must enter into
the process of constructing the anticipatory system.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">The problem of disinformation then highlights the
fact that the evolutionary history of communication and historical
meaning-making is entailed by all our meaning-making processes: it is not
just that meaning arises from anticipating future events, but anticipating
future events in the light of anticipating the system's capacity to
anticipate. I must say (with apologies to Joe who is no fan of Luhmann!),
that Luhmann's late turn to Spencer-Brown and the embedding of time in
distinction-making (see here: <a href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/%28SICI%291099-1743%28199711/12%2914%3A6%3C359%3A%3AAID-SRES160%3E3.0.CO%3B2-R" target="_blank">The
control of intransparency - Luhmann - 1997 - Systems Research and
Behavioral Science - Wiley Online Library</a>) makes more sense when
we appreciate the meaningfulness of disinformation:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">"</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#1c1d1e"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(28,29,30)">General
systems theory shows that the combination of self</span></font><font size="2" face="MS Gothic" color="#1c1d1e"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:rgb(28,29,30)">‐</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#1c1d1e"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(28,29,30)">referential operations and operational closure (or the re</span></font><font size="2" face="MS Gothic" color="#1c1d1e"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:rgb(28,29,30)">‐</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#1c1d1e"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(28,29,30)">entry of output as input) generates a surplus of possible
operations and therefore intransparency of the system for its own
operation. The system cannot produce a complete description of itself. It
has to cope with its own unresolvable indeterminacy. To be able to operate
under such conditions the system has to introduce time. It has to
distinguish between its past and its future. It has to use a memory
function that includes both remembering and forgetting. And it needs an
oscillator function to represent its future. This means, for example, that
the future has to be imagined as achieving or not achieving the goals of
the system."</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best wishes<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Mark<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 19:05, Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dear Mark, Joe, Terry, and other colleagues, <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">It seems to me that this is complex. The
complexity comes to the fore if we realize that one needs criteria about
what is disinformation and what can be considered as information. For
example, the criteria will be different for Democrats or Republicans in the
US. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">If we assume with Niklas Luhmann that society is
differentiated and also differentiating into functional subsystems with
different codes in the communication, one can expect the different logics
to operate upon one another and also to confuse, have unintended effects,
and irritate one another. It is relatively simple as long as "Roma
dixit' what is communication and what is disinformation. Traditionally, the
role hasbeen taken over by the law system. But we cannot go to court for
each miscommunication/dis-information. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Who authorized the social media (Facebook) to take
the policing role. Which codes are developed and used? Empirical questions.
One expects self-organization of the communication leading to
differentiation to prevail, and organization in forms of operational
coupling and thus irritation. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Things become complex as soon as it is no longer
obvious what is mis-information and as soon as one is aware that there are
no standards given. Perhaps, moral standards but these no longer work in a
pluriform society. "Cuius regio, eius religio" was the principle
in 1658 at the Peace of Westfalia. But it assumed sovereignty. Nowadays, we
have freedom of religion and it is difficult to tell someone else that s/he
is misinformed. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Loet<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647signature_old">
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647x2e2dd1b2465d475">
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-weight:bold"><a href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508" target="_blank"></a></span></font></b><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Loet Leydesdorff</span></font></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="1" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">________________________________</span></font></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam <br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net<span> </span></a>;<span> </span><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma"><br>
<a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">ORCID:<span> </span><a href="http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098" target="_blank">http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098</a>;
</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discursive
Knowledge" at</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Tahoma"><a href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508" target="_blank"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt">https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508</span></font></a></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">------ Original Message ------<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">From: "Mark Johnson" <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">To: "fis" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Sent: 12/8/2020 5:14:32 PM<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: On disinformation. Why
disinformation survives<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647xa1e7039ae67c4d9">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Hi Joe,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Regarding your "objective altruistic
criteria" (I quite agree), is this in Bob Ulanowicz's and Loet's
territory, do you think? Bob - are you there? <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Is this a trade-off between autocatalysis and
mutual information in communication ecosystems? That would provide some
kind of metric - particularly in the light of Loet's work. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Personally, I would expect distortions in
anticipatory systems which might be analysable through communication
processes. Trump's tweets, and the chilling dynamics unfolding around what
is obviously a stand-off in electoral trust are an excellent test-ground
for some practical work. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">What do you think?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Mark<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 08:37, Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Dear All,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Disinformation survives and flourishes in part because
supported by statements such as those of Bloom. They are strictly
equivalent in form to Trump’s saying that “there are good people on both</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">sides”, when one of those sides is composed of people who kill
peaceful protesters.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">In the<span> </span></span></font><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">United
States</span></font><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">, despite their uniformly good reaction
to the current attacks on the electoral process, the courts will not be
able to help in a catastrophically large number of cases in the future.
Apart from the ideologue majority in the Supreme Court, the lower courts
have been stuffed with young right wing reactionaries who will poison
decisions for at least a generation.<span> </span></span></font></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">A new process is required, one that explicitly recognizes the
existence of objective altruistic criteria in behavior, where economic or
social self-interest can be shown to be absent. I order not to drown in
pessimism, I repeat to myself the statement of the biologist E. O. Wilson:<span> </span></span></font><span lang="EN-GB">“Selfishness
beats altruism within groups. Altruistic groups beat selfish groups.
Everything else is commentary.”</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">I like to think that this discussion, in a small way, is part
of such a process, since the trans-categorial role of information is
crucial.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Best wishes,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">
<hr width="100%" size="2" align="center">
</span></font></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><span><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></span><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US">Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]<span> </span><b><span style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of<span> </span></span></b>Howard
Bloom<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b><span> </span>mardi, 8 décembre 2020 02:39<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b><span> </span><a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>;<span> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b><span> </span>Re: [Fis] On disinformation</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">thanks, dai.<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">one man's truth is another
man's lie. each subculture has its own truth and its own devil
spilling disinformation.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">to trumpers, joe biden is part
of a coup to take the white house fraudulently. to trumpers, the democrats
are the liars. </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">to anti-trumpers, trump is
trying to pull off a coup to upend the election. trump and his
"army" are the liars. the disinformation spewers.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">which group is right?
which truth is right?</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">how do we judge? especially
if freedom of speech is one of our most basic values?</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">so far, we are relying on the
courts.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="1" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">with warmth and
oomph--howard</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Dai Griffiths <<a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>><br>
To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><span> </span><<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2020 9:05 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] On disinformation</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545">
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">That's all true, Howard.<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">I think it is important to
distinguish between compliance and consensus. Throwing dissidents to the
lions does the trick for compliance, and preventing challenges to power (as
per the shocking first chapter of Foucault's Discipline and Punish).<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">As to consensus, the creation of
a canon is partly a practical matter: given it takes so long to copy a
book, which ones do we think are worth copying and sharing. Printing, and
now information technology, have completely changed these decisions. But on
top of these features of the medium, there is a political process. For
example, it seems likely that leaders in early<span> </span><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>China<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><span> </span>saw how consensus through control
of the canon could provide an alternative (or a useful addition) to lion
feeding as a method for achieving authority, by promoting Confucian ideas.
Both strategies are at work in<span> </span><u></u><u></u>Hong Kong<u></u><u></u><span> </span>today, it seems.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">The two strategies continue side
by side in differing combinations. Some absolute rulers don't worry too
much about consensus outside the group of those standing in line to
assassinate them. Others focus more on control of the development of
consensus through control of the communications ecology, and perhaps<span> </span><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>Russia<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><span> </span>has taken the lead in this.
Neither of these two extremes is attractive, but both are widespread. Most
of us on this list have been fortunate to live in a democratic space carved
out between the rock of forced compliance, and the hard place of
manipulated consensus. The configuration and maintenance of that space
always involves hard work, compromise, and trade-offs that are never ideal
for everybody (and maybe for nobody), but I am certainly grateful for it.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">If we want to say something
sensible about all this, and if we want to make any practical step which
might preserve both our discourses and democracy, then I think we need to
address two quite different kinds of questions:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">1) What is the impact of
information technology, its accompanying regulatory framework and
established patterns of use, on the ecology of communications? How might
the patterns change if we altered this or that part of the system? These
are cybernetic questions.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">2) Who is benefiting from the
emerging communications ecology, what are they doing to shape it's future,
and why? What (if any) changes would we like to persuade legislators and
organisations to make in response and how can this be achieved? These are
political questions.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Dai</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqt01858">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">On 06/12/2020 02:16, Howard
Bloom wrote:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqt49038">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">dai,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">as an indication that your
idea that disinformation is the norm and consensus the exception,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">look how hard previous ages
have worked to impose consensus. spreading roman culture amongst
tribal peoples in the days of the roman empire. throwing
dissidents to the lions. making sure that everyone's education was the
same with the same roughly five books studied and the same alphabet used
from roughly 200 bc onward in china. hunting heretics once<span> </span><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>rome<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><span> </span>turned christian. the
inquisition. the absolute rule of the tsar in<span> </span><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>russia<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>,
with all printing presses used for just one thing: printing the tsar's
ukases.<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana" lang="EN-GB">howard</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Dai Griffiths<span> </span></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB"><dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com></span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"><br>
To:<span> </span></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB">fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"><br>
Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2020 9:41 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] On disinformation</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Dear all,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">We tend to think of
'surveillance capitalism' and other related trends as being a disruption of
normality. But seen from a longer perspective, perhaps we are living in an
unusual period (or the possibly the end of it) in which there has been
relatively widespread social agreement about the nature of the world that
we are living in. "Ask the priest" used to be the answer to
questions of eschatology or social propriety (and often still is) but that
doesn't help much in establishing who is giving the orders or why, and what
is going on in the town over the hill. We have relied on newspapers for
that, and, in the<span> </span><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>UK<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>,
the BBC. As a result, flat earthers haven't much traction recently compared
with the conflict between Galileo and the church, and even McCarthyism was
primarily about economic power and control, not as unhinged as the
witchcraft hysteria that Miller (rightly) compared it to. If it is true
that we have been living in an oasis of relative consensus, where did that
consensus come from?<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">I would argue that it emerged
from the inherent limitations in access to printing technology, and the
editorial, commercial, political and social processes that developed to
cope with that limited access. It is these processes that generated the
authority of some ideas over others, the generalised trust in some media
rather than others, and the ability to identify consistent biases in those
that were trusted.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">I suggest that we should
recognise that disinformation, fake news, and plain old gossip, are the
default state for human social interactions. It is evolved and designed
social structures and institutions that overcome this. Our challenge is
then to disentangle the way that that informational authority was generated
in the past, and the (perhaps disfunctional) way that it is generated at
present. My suspicion is that we won't get far in improving the situation
unless we question the central role of the recommender algorithms that have
taken over much of the work of human editors in determining what is seen
heard and read, and by whom. To have any chance of achieving political
traction in the face of commercial interests and personal preferences,
proposals for change in that area will have to tell and extremely clear
story about how we got to where we are, where we should try to go next, and
how we could get there.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Best</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Dai</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">On 04/12/2020 14:06, Pedro C.
Marijuan wrote:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Dear Terry and FIS colleagues,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Thanks for the reflections--I
will try to continue with rather disconnected ideas.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">The term 'surveillance
capitalism' introduced by Shoshana Zuboff (indeed complemented with a
parallel 'surveillance authoritarianism') is addressed to cover the
new negative aspects of current technological developments. However, my
opinion is that these phenomena are inherent in all human societies in all
epochs, for there is always a tension, say, between the individual
"fitness" and the whole social "commons", which can be
set in quite many different dynamic equilibrium points, basically
maintained via circulating or communicating info flows. It is easy to see
that information, disinformation, surveillance, persuasion, and coercion
travel together in the socialization-communication pack. Historically,
every new means of communication (then we land on McLuhan) alters those
social equilibria and somehow demands a social or cultural reaction to
re-establish an acceptable collective situation. The problem now, you
mentioned in the previous post, is the enormous concentration of power, of
brute info flows, around these new media--without appropriate social
curation at the time being. I doubt that these technologies can bring the
solution by themselves . Institutional, social intervention would be
needed... Scholarly analysis might be important, providing cues on
the the influence on individual and collective moods/personalities, on the
possible counteracting institutional alternatives and on the needed new
cultural norms to abide along these new forms of communication (sort of
'traffic regulations'), even a personal hygiene of communication...<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">The problems are far more
serious, complex, and faster than in McLuhan's time. We have to reinvent
his views... But how can we organize a collective, cumulative discussion? I
was thinking that a feasible first step, apart of what we can do directly
in the list, could be calling for a Special Issue in some interesting,
multidisciplinary Journal. Well, at the time being, Terry, Joseph, and
myself are promoting a sort of ad hoc group to move things--anyone else
would join??</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Best regards</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">--Pedro</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">El 01/12/2020 a las 22:54,
Terrence W. DEACON escribió:</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Dear Pedro,<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Great suggestions. I like the
idea of an ongoing separate thread addressing disinformation.<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Of course I only addressed
Western disinformation and didn't even touch on highly massaged information
that is often disseminated with centralized governmental control.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">This disinforms by
selective censorship and redundancy and is increasingly taking advantage of
the myriad new forms of surveillance that can be used to shape the
information made available to different targeted audiences.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">And Yes McLuhan is definitely
relevant.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">I wonder how he would think
about the effects of these new media.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">How do they reshape the nature
of content?</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">How they can be understood using
his notions of hot and cool?</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">What is now in the rear
view mirror within the new media that once was in the foreground?</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">On these matters Bob Logan might
want to weigh in.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">--<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u>University<u></u><u></u><u></u><span> </span>of<span> </span><u></u><u></u>California<u></u><u></u><u></u>,
Berkeley</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"><fieldset></fieldset>_______________________________________________</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">Fis mailing list</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">----------<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">----------</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"> </span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">-- </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">-------------------------------------------------</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">Pedro C. Marijuán</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" shape="rect" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" shape="rect" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt">------------------------------------------------- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
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PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL Ud. recibe este correo por
pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<span> </span></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT">Puede
encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente
enlace:<span> </span></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a></span></font><span><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"> </span></font></span><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT">Recuerde
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB">----------<span> </span></span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
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<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">-- </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">-----------------------------------------</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">Professor David (Dai) <u></u><u></u>Griffiths<u></u><u></u></span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">SKYPE: daigriffiths</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">Phones (please don't leave voice mail)</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span lang="IT">UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT"> Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">email</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT"> </span><a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></font></pre></div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqtfd69653">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"><br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:<span> </span></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB">http://listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="EN-GB"><br>
----------</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">-- </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">-----------------------------------------</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">Professor David (Dai) <u></u><u></u>Griffiths<u></u><u></u></span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">SKYPE: daigriffiths</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB">Phones (please don't leave voice mail)</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span lang="IT">UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT"> Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT"> </span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT">email</span><u></u><u></u></font></pre><pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10pt" lang="IT"> </span><a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></font></pre></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-6205782675823704252gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yqt41334">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"><br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:<span> </span></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" shape="rect" target="_blank"><span lang="IT">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a></span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial" lang="IT"><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" shape="rect" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:<span> </span><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">--<span> </span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
Institute of Learning and Teaching<br>
Faculty of Health and Life Sciences<br>
University of Liverpool<br>
<br>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email:<span> </span><a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
Blog:<span> </span><a href="http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">--<span> </span><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
Institute of Learning and Teaching<br>
Faculty of Health and Life Sciences<br>
University of Liverpool<br>
<br>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email:<span> </span><a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
Blog:<span> </span><a href="http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">Fis
mailing list</span><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
</font></p></span><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></font></a><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
</span></font><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></font></a><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">----------</span><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">INFORMACI�N
SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL</span><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">Ud.
recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la
Universidad de Zaragoza.</span><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">Puede
encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:<span> </span></span></span></font><a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></font></a><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">Recuerde
que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la
propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.</span><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
</span></font><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">http://listas.unizar.es</span></font></a><font size="1" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;float:none;word-spacing:0px">----------</span></span></font><u></u><u></u>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<br>
</blockquote></div>