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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>Dear Mark J. and Loet,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>Your last two notes state very clearly the key properties of the
complex system of people and their capacities, interactions and communications.
It is a good place from which to continue the discussion. I would just like to
suggest that the latter can be made more fruitful if explicit or implicit
binary distinctions can be excluded from our common ‘language’:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0cm' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>The conceptions of Spencer-Brown
and Luhmann are formal (diagrammatic) and epistemic. They do not describe
the properties of real systems and the interactions that prevail in them.
They follow nothing but their own semantic rules and incorporate pre-relativistic
ideas of time and space.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>It should not be assumed that
systems must provide <i><span style='font-style:italic'>complete </span></i>descriptions
of themselves. Nothing real can be ‘completely’ described anyway, so why
suggest it as a criticism? Systems are characterized by <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>both </span></i>indeterminacy and determinacy,
and to call the former ‘unresolvable’ begs the question.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>When Loet writes: </span></font><font
color=black><span lang=EN-GB style='color:windowtext'>it is difficult to
tell someone else that s/he is misinformed</span></font><font size=2
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'> I think there is a possible categorial
confusion: it may indeed be difficult to say some things to other people, but
these things may be correct and it may be necessary to say them, literally,
for the common good. Please do not imagine that I am somehow insulated
from the probability (hopefully low) of error. If I did not accept this
probability, <i><span style='font-style:italic'>then</span></i> I could be
criticized for being inconsistent, even <i><span style='font-style:italic'>prima
facie </span></i>misinformed. I do not think this, and only ask that my
approach be given <i><span style='font-style:italic'>no less attention</span></i>
than what is paid to more familiar ones. <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>We are not, at least I am not, experts
in psychology who can define the pathology of mental phenomena scientifically.
(To call some two-dimensional curves ‘pathological’ is pure metaphor.) Nevertheless,
I think Mark’s point 3 about a decline in variety, echoing Ashby, is an
excellent perspective since it describes things in terms of change. Just
following the line of my first sentence, it might be useful to point out
the necessity of limiting variety if it, too, grows out of proportion. <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>As I look at what I have just written, the task of distinguishing
information and disinformation as <i><span style='font-style:italic'>types</span></i>
is no different from that of identifying how they, and other binary pairs, are also
similar and overlap. The alternative is to make the kind of error ridiculed by
Ionesco in a play (I have forgotten which) in which several actors shout at
once: “It’s not this but that; it’s not this but that!”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Johnson<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> mardi, 8 décembre 2020 22:42<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> fis<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] FW: On
disinformation. Why disinformation survives</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dear Loet, all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Yes it is complex - but fascinating, and throws up some fascinating
points about the meaningfulness of categorising "disinformation".<font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I can't see that it is necessary to distinguish
disinformation from information: this distinction seems at the wrong level of
analysis. </span>Echoing Joe's point that there is a difference between
systemic viability (altruism) and pathology, rather than specific messages
being disinformative or not, can I suggest the following:<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>1. Disinformation is a meta-systemic categorisation of a systemic
pathology;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>2. To recognise its own pathology is to recognise a systemic loss of
variety and a reduced capacity to self-organise the communication system in
comparison to the past; This is the "meaningfulness" the metasystem
establishes in its own systemic behaviour;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>3. The meaning of disinformation, like all meaning, results from the
construction of a selection mechanism which determines "this is
disinformation". That selection mechanism must be anticipatory, must it
not? And for it to be anticipatory (for it to foresee the pathological
consequences of a pattern of decline in variety), the pattern of its own
historical development (or decline) must enter into the process of constructing
the anticipatory system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The problem of disinformation then highlights the fact that the
evolutionary history of communication and historical meaning-making is entailed
by all our meaning-making processes: it is not just that meaning arises from
anticipating future events, but anticipating future events in the light of
anticipating the system's capacity to anticipate. I must say (with apologies to
Joe who is no fan of Luhmann!), that Luhmann's late turn to Spencer-Brown and
the embedding of time in distinction-making (see here: <a
href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/%28SICI%291099-1743%28199711/12%2914%3A6%3C359%3A%3AAID-SRES160%3E3.0.CO%3B2-R">The
control of intransparency - Luhmann - 1997 - Systems Research and Behavioral
Science - Wiley Online Library</a>) makes more sense when we
appreciate the meaningfulness of disinformation:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>"</span></font><font size=2 color="#1c1d1e" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1C1D1E'>General systems theory
shows that the combination of self</span></font><font size=2 color="#1c1d1e"
face="MS Gothic"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";
color:#1C1D1E'>‐</span></font><font size=2 color="#1c1d1e" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1C1D1E'>referential operations
and operational closure (or the re</span></font><font size=2 color="#1c1d1e"
face="MS Gothic"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";
color:#1C1D1E'>‐</span></font><font size=2 color="#1c1d1e" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1C1D1E'>entry of output as
input) generates a surplus of possible operations and therefore intransparency
of the system for its own operation. The system cannot produce a complete
description of itself. It has to cope with its own unresolvable indeterminacy.
To be able to operate under such conditions the system has to introduce time.
It has to distinguish between its past and its future. It has to use a memory
function that includes both remembering and forgetting. And it needs an
oscillator function to represent its future. This means, for example, that the
future has to be imagined as achieving or not achieving the goals of the
system."</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Best wishes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Mark<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 19:05, Loet Leydesdorff <<a
href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dear Mark, Joe, Terry, and other colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It seems to me that this is complex. The complexity comes to the fore
if we realize that one needs criteria about what is disinformation and what can
be considered as information. For example, the criteria will be different for
Democrats or Republicans in the US. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If we assume with Niklas Luhmann that society is differentiated and
also differentiating into functional subsystems with different codes in the
communication, one can expect the different logics to operate upon one another
and also to confuse, have unintended effects, and irritate one another. It is
relatively simple as long as "Roma dixit' what is communication and what
is disinformation. Traditionally, the role hasbeen taken over by the law
system. But we cannot go to court for each
miscommunication/dis-information. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Who authorized the social media (Facebook) to take the policing role.
Which codes are developed and used? Empirical questions. One expects
self-organization of the communication leading to differentiation to prevail,
and organization in forms of operational coupling and thus irritation. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Things become complex as soon as it is no longer obvious what is
mis-information and as soon as one is aware that there are no standards given.
Perhaps, moral standards but these no longer work in a pluriform society.
"Cuius regio, eius religio" was the principle in 1658 at the Peace of
Westfalia. But it assumed sovereignty. Nowadays, we have freedom of religion
and it is difficult to tell someone else that s/he is misinformed. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647signature_old">
<div id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647x2e2dd1b2465d475">
<div id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647x37dfff32a36b4410ad8e891fea6bb1b8">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'><a
href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508" target="_blank"></a></span></font></b><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>Loet Leydesdorff</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=1 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>________________________________</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Professor
emeritus, University of Amsterdam <br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><a
href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"
title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net </a>; <a
href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank"
title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"
target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>ORCID: <a
href="http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098" target="_blank">http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098</a>;
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>"The
Evolutionary Dynamics of Discursive Knowledge" at</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><a
href="https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508" target="_blank"><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030599508</span></font></a>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>------ Original Message ------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>From: "Mark Johnson" <<a
href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>To: "fis" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Sent: 12/8/2020 5:14:32 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: On disinformation. Why disinformation survives<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647xa1e7039ae67c4d9">
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi Joe,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Regarding your "objective altruistic criteria" (I quite
agree), is this in Bob Ulanowicz's and Loet's territory, do you think? Bob -
are you there? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Is this a trade-off between autocatalysis and mutual information in
communication ecosystems? That would provide some kind of metric - particularly
in the light of Loet's work. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Personally, I would expect distortions in anticipatory systems which
might be analysable through communication processes. Trump's tweets, and the
chilling dynamics unfolding around what is obviously a stand-off in electoral
trust are an excellent test-ground for some practical work. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>What do you think?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Mark<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 08:37, Joseph Brenner <<a
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>Dear All,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>Disinformation survives
and flourishes in part because supported by statements such as those of Bloom.
They are strictly equivalent in form to Trump’s saying that “there are good
people on both</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>sides”, when one of those
sides is composed of people who kill peaceful protesters.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>In the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
despite their uniformly good reaction to the current attacks on the electoral
process, the courts will not be able to help in a catastrophically large number
of cases in the future. Apart from the ideologue majority in the Supreme Court,
the lower courts have been stuffed with young right wing reactionaries who will
poison decisions for at least a generation. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>A new process is required,
one that explicitly recognizes the existence of objective altruistic criteria
in behavior, where economic or social self-interest can be shown to be absent.
I order not to drown in pessimism, I repeat to myself the statement of the
biologist E. O. Wilson: </span></font><span lang=EN-GB>“Selfishness beats
altruism within groups. Altruistic groups beat selfish groups. Everything else
is commentary.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>I like to think that this
discussion, in a small way, is part of such a process, since the
trans-categorial role of information is crucial.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>Best wishes,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'>Joseph</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Fis [mailto:<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Howard Bloom<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> mardi, 8 décembre 2020 02:39<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>;
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] On
disinformation</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>thanks, dai. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>one man's truth is another man's lie.
each subculture has its own truth and its own devil spilling disinformation.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>to trumpers, joe biden is part of a coup to
take the white house fraudulently. to trumpers, the democrats are the
liars. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>to anti-trumpers, trump is trying to pull off
a coup to upend the election. trump and his "army" are the
liars. the disinformation spewers.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>which group is right? which truth is
right?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>how do we judge? especially if freedom
of speech is one of our most basic values?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>so far, we are relying on the courts.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>with warmth and oomph--howard</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dai Griffiths <<a href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com"
target="_blank">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2020 9:05 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] On disinformation</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>That's all true, Howard. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I think it is important to distinguish between
compliance and consensus. Throwing dissidents to the lions does the trick for
compliance, and preventing challenges to power (as per the shocking first
chapter of Foucault's Discipline and Punish). </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>As to consensus, the creation of a canon is
partly a practical matter: given it takes so long to copy a book, which ones do
we think are worth copying and sharing. Printing, and now information
technology, have completely changed these decisions. But on top of these
features of the medium, there is a political process. For example, it seems
likely that leaders in early <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">China</st1:place></st1:country-region>
saw how consensus through control of the canon could provide an alternative (or
a useful addition) to lion feeding as a method for achieving authority, by
promoting Confucian ideas. Both strategies are at work in <st1:place w:st="on">Hong
Kong</st1:place> today, it seems.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>The two strategies continue side by side in
differing combinations. Some absolute rulers don't worry too much about
consensus outside the group of those standing in line to assassinate them.
Others focus more on control of the development of consensus through control of
the communications ecology, and perhaps <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Russia</st1:place></st1:country-region> has taken the lead in this.
Neither of these two extremes is attractive, but both are widespread. Most of
us on this list have been fortunate to live in a democratic space carved out
between the rock of forced compliance, and the hard place of manipulated
consensus. The configuration and maintenance of that space always involves hard
work, compromise, and trade-offs that are never ideal for everybody (and maybe
for nobody), but I am certainly grateful for it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>If we want to say something sensible about all
this, and if we want to make any practical step which might preserve both our
discourses and democracy, then I think we need to address two quite different
kinds of questions:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>1) What is the impact of information technology,
its accompanying regulatory framework and established patterns of use, on the
ecology of communications? How might the patterns change if we altered this or
that part of the system? These are cybernetic questions.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>2) Who is benefiting from the emerging
communications ecology, what are they doing to shape it's future, and why? What
(if any) changes would we like to persuade legislators and organisations to
make in response and how can this be achieved? These are political questions.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Dai</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqt01858">
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>On 06/12/2020 02:16, Howard Bloom wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqt49038">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>dai,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>as an indication that your idea that
disinformation is the norm and consensus the exception,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>look how hard previous ages have worked to
impose consensus. spreading roman culture amongst tribal peoples in the
days of the roman empire. throwing dissidents to the
lions. making sure that everyone's education was the same with the same
roughly five books studied and the same alphabet used from roughly 200 bc
onward in china. hunting heretics once <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">rome</st1:place></st1:City> turned christian. the
inquisition. the absolute rule of the tsar in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">russia</st1:place></st1:country-region>, with all printing presses
used for just one thing: printing the tsar's ukases. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:black'>howard</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Dai Griffiths </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a
href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank" shape=rect><span
lang=EN-GB><dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com></span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
To: </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=EN-GB>fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2020 9:41 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] On disinformation</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Dear all,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>We tend to think of 'surveillance capitalism'
and other related trends as being a disruption of normality. But seen from a
longer perspective, perhaps we are living in an unusual period (or the possibly
the end of it) in which there has been relatively widespread social agreement
about the nature of the world that we are living in. "Ask the priest"
used to be the answer to questions of eschatology or social propriety (and
often still is) but that doesn't help much in establishing who is giving the
orders or why, and what is going on in the town over the hill. We have relied
on newspapers for that, and, in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region>, the BBC. As a result, flat
earthers haven't much traction recently compared with the conflict between
Galileo and the church, and even McCarthyism was primarily about economic power
and control, not as unhinged as the witchcraft hysteria that Miller (rightly)
compared it to. If it is true that we have been living in an oasis of relative
consensus, where did that consensus come from? </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I would argue that it emerged from the inherent
limitations in access to printing technology, and the editorial, commercial,
political and social processes that developed to cope with that limited access.
It is these processes that generated the authority of some ideas over others,
the generalised trust in some media rather than others, and the ability to
identify consistent biases in those that were trusted.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I suggest that we should recognise that
disinformation, fake news, and plain old gossip, are the default state for
human social interactions. It is evolved and designed social structures and
institutions that overcome this. Our challenge is then to disentangle the way
that that informational authority was generated in the past, and the (perhaps
disfunctional) way that it is generated at present. My suspicion is that we
won't get far in improving the situation unless we question the central role of
the recommender algorithms that have taken over much of the work of human
editors in determining what is seen heard and read, and by whom. To have any
chance of achieving political traction in the face of commercial interests and
personal preferences, proposals for change in that area will have to tell and
extremely clear story about how we got to where we are, where we should try to
go next, and how we could get there.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Best</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Dai</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqtfd54811">
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>On 04/12/2020 14:06, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqtfd46017">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Dear Terry and FIS colleagues,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Thanks for the reflections--I will try to
continue with rather disconnected ideas.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>The term 'surveillance capitalism' introduced by
Shoshana Zuboff (indeed complemented with a parallel 'surveillance
authoritarianism') is addressed to cover the new negative aspects of current
technological developments. However, my opinion is that these phenomena are
inherent in all human societies in all epochs, for there is always a tension,
say, between the individual "fitness" and the whole social
"commons", which can be set in quite many different dynamic
equilibrium points, basically maintained via circulating or communicating info
flows. It is easy to see that information, disinformation, surveillance,
persuasion, and coercion travel together in the socialization-communication pack.
Historically, every new means of communication (then we land on McLuhan) alters
those social equilibria and somehow demands a social or cultural reaction to
re-establish an acceptable collective situation. The problem now, you mentioned
in the previous post, is the enormous concentration of power, of brute info
flows, around these new media--without appropriate social curation at the
time being. I doubt that these technologies can bring the solution by
themselves . Institutional, social intervention would be needed...
Scholarly analysis might be important, providing cues on the the influence on
individual and collective moods/personalities, on the possible counteracting
institutional alternatives and on the needed new cultural norms to abide along
these new forms of communication (sort of 'traffic regulations'), even a
personal hygiene of communication... </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>The problems are far more serious, complex, and
faster than in McLuhan's time. We have to reinvent his views... But how can we
organize a collective, cumulative discussion? I was thinking that a feasible
first step, apart of what we can do directly in the list, could be calling for
a Special Issue in some interesting, multidisciplinary Journal. Well, at the
time being, Terry, Joseph, and myself are promoting a sort of ad hoc group to
move things--anyone else would join??</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Best regards</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>--Pedro</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>El 01/12/2020 a las 22:54, Terrence W. DEACON
escribió:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqtfd41836">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Dear Pedro, </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Great suggestions. I like the idea of an ongoing
separate thread addressing disinformation. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Of course I only addressed Western
disinformation and didn't even touch on highly massaged information that is
often disseminated with centralized governmental control.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>This disinforms by selective censorship and
redundancy and is increasingly taking advantage of the myriad new forms of
surveillance that can be used to shape the information made available to
different targeted audiences.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>And Yes McLuhan is definitely relevant.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I wonder how he would think about the effects of
these new media.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>How do they reshape the nature of content?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>How they can be understood using his notions of
hot and cool?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>What is now in the rear view mirror within
the new media that once was in the foreground?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>On these matters Bob Logan might want to weigh
in.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>-- </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">California</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, Berkeley</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><fieldset></fieldset>_______________________________________________</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Fis mailing list</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=EN-GB>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"
shape=rect><span lang=EN-GB>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>----------</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: </span><a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=IT>https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=IT>http://listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>----------</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<pre><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>-- </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>-------------------------------------------------</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Pedro C. Marijuán</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" shape=rect>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank" shape=rect>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>------------------------------------------------- </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellpadding=0 style='border:none;
border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt'>
<tr>
<td width=50 style='width:37.35pt;border:none;padding:12.25pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
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size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span style='text-decoration:none'><img border=0
width=46 height=29
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931_x005f_x0000_i1025"
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
<td width=426 style='width:319.25pt;border:none;padding:11.55pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
line-height:12.25pt'><font size=1 color="#41424e" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#41424E'>Libre de virus. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
target="_blank" shape=rect><font color="#4453ea"><span style='color:#4453EA'>www.avast.com</span></font></a>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><a
href="https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-us/suite#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"
target="_blank" shape=rect></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqtfd59618">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>_______________________________________________ Fis mailing list <a
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" shape=rect>Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"
shape=rect>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a> ----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL Ud. recibe este
correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de
Zaragoza. </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Puede encontrar toda la
información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=IT>https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud.
puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee. </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" shape=rect><span
lang=EN-GB>http://listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>---------- </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>-- </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>-----------------------------------------</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Professor David (Dai) <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Griffiths</st1:place></st1:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>SKYPE: daigriffiths</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Phones (please don't leave voice mail)</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span lang=IT
style='color:black'>UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>email</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span><a
href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank" shape=rect><span
lang=IT>dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</span></a></font><o:p></o:p></pre></div>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yiv0404780545yqtfd69653">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=IT>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"
shape=rect><span lang=IT>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la
Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace: </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=IT>https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja
desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=EN-GB>http://listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
----------</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>-- </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>-----------------------------------------</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Professor David (Dai) <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Griffiths</st1:place></st1:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>SKYPE: daigriffiths</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>Phones (please don't leave voice mail)</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span lang=IT
style='color:black'>UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>email</span></font><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> </span><a
href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" target="_blank" shape=rect><span
lang=IT>dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</span></a></font><o:p></o:p></pre></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-2868418366910453647gmail-m_4788285575898681931yqt41334">
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=IT>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank"
shape=rect><span lang=IT>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la
Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace: </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
target="_blank" shape=rect><span lang=IT>https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=IT style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black'><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde
la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/"
target="_blank" shape=rect>http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la
Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja
desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
----------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
Institute of Learning and Teaching<br>
Faculty of Health and Life Sciences<br>
University of Liverpool<br>
<br>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
Blog: <a href="http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
Institute of Learning and Teaching<br>
Faculty of Health and Life Sciences<br>
University of Liverpool<br>
<br>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
Blog: <a href="http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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